Is there a 'correct' wing load?

[Deisel 35]

So I've done a search on beginning swooping and have not seen much that addresses this. Most of the discussion in the forum appears to center on downsizing progression and appropriate types of canopies based on skill and experience.
Is there a 'recommended' wing load progression for swooping? In other words, is it even possible to swoop a canopy at say a 1:0.8 wing load? What's a good ball park area to start? Is there such a thing as a canopy thats just too big to swoop?
I ask because it seems that starting on a canopy that is very docile (comparatively) would not allow for enough of a response to inputs to be truly usefull. Am I way off the mark here?

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[AggieDave 6]

You're a little off mark, but you're starting to think along the right lines.

Swooping and learning how to swoop does NOT start with pulling on front risers. It starts by learning the foundations of canopy flight then mastering them. To be a swooper you have to be able to fly a good pattern and do so accurately. You have to understand the dynamics of the recovery arc as well as how you're canopy is moving, why its moving and what you can do to make it do what you want.

You can read about it, you can watch it, you can do it, but I recommend you get a local canopy mentor who is a respected canopy pilot to help you along.

Assuming that you're on a semi-modern design canopy that is safe for front riser maneuvers, then that is the perfect canopy to start on. Do NOT downsize to start learning how to swoop and do NOT buy some other high performance canopy. Start on what you know and progress properly.

There is nothing wrong with starting on a .75:1 wingloading to learn how to swoop. Just as there is nothing wrong with starting on a 1:1 wingloading to learn how to swoop. There IS something wrong with starting on a 1.3:1 wingloading at 100 jumps to learn how to swoop!

If you need motivation to learn correctly and take safe steps towards your progression, then please visit the Incidents forum.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BETO74 0]

Agree...But I think he is referring to the point on witch the canopy losses performance due to increase in wingloading.
This is a hard question, I would like to hear some responses I have seen people with wind loadings of 3.0 getting incredible performance of off their canopies, and the same for other canopy pilots with lesser WL. I think I read between 1.8 to 2.3 is optimal but again the right technique is as if not more important than W.L .

I could be wrong, wont be the first nor the last.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[ianmdrennan 2]

From a realistic point of view, optimal is whatever you can perform the most consistently, and safely, with.

That said, higher wingloading = more speed BUT your window of error decreases as you increase your wingload. It requires more finesse to get good results at higher loadings.

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right technique is as if not more important than W.L .

Exactly!

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

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I think I read between 1.8 to 2.3 is optimal

It depends. World record distance runs have been on much higher wingloadings.

Fat boys and big canopies, work too.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Darius11 12]

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Fat boys and big canopies, work too.

Yes they do

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Deisel 35]

Well, before anyone's feelings get hurt let me rephrase the question. Apparently it does not exist but what would be a recommended wing load progression? Just like there is a recommended beginning wing load for student skydivers, shouldn't there be one for swooping?
Maybe part of the reason so many people get hurt trying to swoop is because of the apparent lack of information on the subject.
Billvon's downsizing checklist is great for standard canopy flight but does it apply to high performance as well? What are some of the considerations for downsizing that apply to high performance canopy flight that do/don't apply to standard flight?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[AggieDave 6]

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What are some of the considerations for downsizing that apply to high performance canopy flight that do/don't apply to standard flight?

The same fundamentals required to be mastered for a "standard" flight, is still needed for a beginning swooper. Its also important that high performance approaches be learned up high and applied in a controlled environment on an appropriately loaded canopy.

Basically you should master techniques before downsizing. There is not set check box then downsize rule, that is why a local canopy mentor is so important. Its easy to put yourself in a position in which you can seriously injure or kill yourself and/or others if you're trying to do things out of sequence or improperly. Even if you're on a lightly loaded appropriate class of canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tetra316 0]

Doesn't Brian Germain have a recommended not to exceed wingloading chart as you downsize? I would think that chart would apply no matter the goal. imho sometimes I think it's even a little too aggressive.

[AggieDave 6]

That was my point, but too many people look at it and go "oh, I'm at 300 jumps so I can jump a canopy at 1.3:1" without having learned the necessary skills. They also don't typically think about the type of canopy. Like the young jumper at my DZ that wanted to demo a Katana 170 since he had been on a Sabre2 170 for a little while.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mnskydiver688 0]

If only they made a Velo 150!

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[mdrejhon 8]

Beginner 'casual swooper' here. I did not start landing with front riser approaches until Jump #299 except at high altitude. Finally, at #299, I landed in my first double-fronts-boosted planeout. No swoop turns yet.

I'm told by the 'good coaches' that no modern canopy is too light to swoop. I fly a Sabre 170 with a wingload 1.15:1, and I think swooping with something big is just perfectly fine as long as it's a reasonably modern design. (Sabre is a slightly older design, but it's still modern enough to be a beginner swoop canopy if that happens to be what you already have.) Although I've demoed at 143 and 150 already, a swoop-accelerated 170 can planeout further than a non-swooped 150 or 135.

The front risers are really intense though on Sabre's at light wingloadings. I got many good tips from multiple people to push a big boat in plain straight-in double-fronts approaches, so I can still easily more than double the usual planeout distance without too much effort nor risk. But I'd also recommend maxing out a lot of things first, about the canopy. Read Germain's famous book. Talk to a few mentors on dropzone.

There are dangers. I've botched an approach once to tumble, but it was pretty tame (learned a valuable lesson about target fixation and releasing double fronts too late) -- thanks to the very light wingloading, and all I got was dirtstain on my jumpsuit legs, no ouch, no pain at all. Better to begin learning under 1.1 than begin learning under 1.5 I say! But still can get hurt...

You won't get 500 feet planeouts, but you easily can turn a 75 feet planeout to a 150 feet planeout. Makes a canopy feel like a new one, eliminate canopy boredom for another hundred jumps (or more), be a safer swooper on your next downsize...

Canopy coach strongly recommended, of course..

[Pulse 0]

I'm a believer that any canopy can be swooped. They just have different limitations. I'm not quite sure what people here are referring to as 'modern designs'. "...as long as you have a modern design..." I don't know what this means.

Anyway, it's GOOD to start on something big. It puts things in your favor for when things go bad. Figure that you WILL BOUNCE YOURSELF OFF THE GROUND at some point during your swooping pursuit. When that happens, wouldn't you rather be under something with some square footage to it?

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[AggieDave 6]

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as long as you have a modern design..." I don't know what this means.

A canopy that responds correctly to a front riser maneuver. Not like a couple of the badly designed canopies from the past that would fold.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jumpah 0]

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I ask because it seems that starting on a canopy that is very docile (comparatively) would not allow for enough of a response to inputs to be truly usefull. Am I way off the mark here?

In short, yes you are off the mark a bit. We start students on big, slow, docile canopies (navigators). And guess what? Many of them pound in on their first few jumps. They'll drop a toggle at 10 feet...they flare unevenly at 10 feet ("the wind suddenly pushed me!")...they flare too high then let it all up. You see it all the time.

Beginning swoopers make their own type of mistakes, but they are going faster. So when you start swooping go back into beginner student mode. Get on something bigger and slower.

An old and experienced swooper told me that there are really just two kinds of swoopers...those who have pounded in, and those who are going to pound in. Every other swooper who overheard him nodded in agreement.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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An old and experienced swooper told me that there are really just two kinds of swoopers...those who have pounded in, and those who are going to pound in.

Quoted for emphasis. I say that in all my classes.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[aresye 0]

Worked myself slowly up from double fronts, to 90 degree fronts, on my Spectre loaded at 1.1:1. I did a great job, had some great swoops on the canopy, but I lacked something.

It wasn't skill, because I was pulling them off consistently. It was attitude. The same attitude that made me start low altitude turns, is the same one that ended up with me pounding in at Jump 89. Tore my quad muscle where it connects to the knee, and to the femur. Luckily I could recover from it without any surgery. I hit the ground on my knee cap, and I consider myself very lucky I did not snap my femur, or shatter my pelvis. My knee is still tight to this day, and I'm sure I will have slight pain in my leg for the rest of my life.

Now, I'm still interested in learning to swoop, but now I've dropped all low turns, and have been practicing flare turns, flat turns, braked turns, front riser turns, and as much extra I can get in up high. When below 1500, I set myself up for my approach, and then I work on flying a good pattern, constantly keeping alert of my altitude, and the descent rate of my canopy.

So remember, you may find you have the skill to pull off some swoops, but if you lack the discipline to call off a swoop when it's not a 100% perfect setup, then you're setting yourself up for a nasty pound in. Be safe, and don't repeat the experience I did.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[dharma1976 0]

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Skydiving: You either learn from your mistakes, or someone else wont.

fixed it for you

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CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[aresye 0]

So true...so true.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.