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geofsmth

Cut in laterals?

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I jumped a buddies rig with the same canopy but his rig had cut in laterals and I noticed that it did not respond as quickly and as much to harness inputs as my rig with cut-in's

So my question is do you prefer cut in laterals on your swooping rig? Do you see a noticable difference?

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Cut-in laterals were initially designed so that people with larger rigs would not have their rigs "washing around" on their backs during freefally. With tiny rigs, the cut-in laterals acually hinder your ability to harness steer your canopy. They are also a hinderance on small rigs which are used primarilly for wingsuiting because they bind in the lacing of the suits.

Chest rings on a swooping rig are likewise a total waste of money.

Let me be clear here:

A: all swoopers nowdays either pull down their sliders or completely remove them. Thus, once down the chest strap is completely loosened which negates ANY benefit of chest rings under canopy. It's for that reason that no Wings container is offered with chest rings. They are simply redundant under canopy if you are jumping an HP canopy and fly it in it's designed parameters.

B: Cut-in harnesses make your rig fit very tight to your body in freefall, thus preventing any "sliding around" of your container, assuming you are jumping a container wider than your waist. If your container is the same width of your waist or narrower, then you are simply wasting your money with cut-in laterals. You are even screwing yourself with those cut-in laterals if the rig in question is primarilly used for wingsuiting. For wingsuiting, it's actually much better if your laterals go straight back into your suit lacing.

I have been jumping rigs with cut-in laterals since BEFORE the introduction of the Javelin Oddysey. When I took my Wings ride, I first got both of my sponsored rigs with cut-in laterals. After my first wingsuit-specific rig got over three years old, I ordered my replacement with "straight" laterals. It's a much easier fit with the suits I jump and it responds MUCH better to harness steer than my cut-in rigs.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

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Quote


It's for that reason that no Wings container is offered with chest rings.



Chuck, are there not other reasons that some manufacturers do not offer fully articulated rigs? for example, it complicates the cut away and reserve cable routing, it increases the possibility of harness shift during a malfunction, it adds cost with little or no benefit?

R

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Most likely , there is no real benefit, just marketing hype that most customers refuse to disbelieve,,,,all it does is add more inventory and more potential problem areas...but you'll look cool if you believe you'll need it to be cool B|;)

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

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The Point where your Leg Straps attach to your harness.

Traditional Rigs the Lateral Harness goes through the bottom of the container between the backpad and the Main packing tray. The Laterals extend from the outside corners of the bottom of the rig where the the chest harness and leg straps attach to the laterals usually via a metal ring (articulated harness).

Cut In Laterals mean that the laterals are moved from the corners of the container to more of centered location through the back pad. Usually 3-4 inches inside the corners of the container.

This is strictly a comfort modification and there have been several threads about whether cut in laterals impact sit flying and swooping.

I personally believe that articulated harnesses with Cut in Laterals do negatively impact my ability to perform harness turns. I don't believe my rig impacts my ability to freefly in any way.

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I would like to say a few words in defense of cut-in laterals and chest rings...

Of course you can be better off without them, if you're buying a brand new container and have the harness specifically tailored for your body parameters... But what if you're looking for a second-hand rig? Then you might end up buying the container with a harnes one size smaller or bigger. It is easier to replace a chest strap, if you have chest rings... For example, I bought a rig with a short chest strap and had it replaced with a much longer one, when I was in DeLand in March. It took only about an hour for a local rigger to replace it.

Less stitching - less work time - less money out of your pocket:)

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Bump

just curious if people still feel this way:

"With tiny rigs, the cut-in laterals acually hinder your ability to harness steer your canopy"

i am thinking of ordering a new rig and it seems some manufacturers don't even offer standard laterals any more

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Tiny rigs should mean tiny x braced canopies and by tiny I mean smaller than 80 square feet.

I jump canopies less than 80 square feet an have just moved from a Vector to a Javelin. These are very sensiteve to harness position. Maybe small rather than tiny catering for 80-100 square feet this will become more of an issue.

The Jav has chest rings that I do not particularly like for going fast head down or on an angle as the shoulders tend to sneak outwards but I do not feel it has any impact on harness turns.

Maybe on a bus like a 96 or something, lol.

Both have cut in lats but the vector has the hard bits that still goe to the corner.

Hard to say if cut in laterals make much difference. Not many rigs do not have them these days anyways so I guess we get what we are given.

The world champs do not seem to have a problem with them.

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Greig474

Bump

just curious if people still feel this way:

"With tiny rigs, the cut-in laterals acually hinder your ability to harness steer your canopy"

i am thinking of ordering a new rig and it seems some manufacturers don't even offer standard laterals any more



I can't really answer your question from experience(never had cut ins) but on paper it sure looks like a significant loss of leverage.

What I can answer(or perhaps ask), as I just sold one of the smallest rigs I know of, is what exactly the point would be anyway as a tiny rig is so narrow. Depends on what you mean by tiny of course. The container I sold I had several experienced packers refuse to pack a 74 in it. It broke a closing loop at the convention on the 20 something jump on the rig and I got an evil glare from the girl closing it about when I last changed it. "Never! I just got the rig!" I did stuff an 82 in there but it was painful.

I only go there to define what you mean by "tiny". That rig was sexy as hell in parapak but I would never ever purchase it again. But I can see no advantage to cut in laterals on rigs this small and only the loss of leverage for harness input. I did have the laterals an inch shorter on that rig specifically to help increase sensitivity to harness input.

Cut in laterals I always thought were designed to keep larger rigs from sliding around. Small rigs already keep the laterals tight to your body
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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ianmdrennan

Far as I know, yes.

I don't notice any negative impact at all from them.



Could I ask what positive impact they have on rigs that are much less narrow than your body? I can see manufactures wanting there sponsored jumpers to have them show off the options and they may have a cosmetic appeal to some and hence higher resale value(?), but what is your main reason for ordering them?

Totally serious question so please don't take it the wrong way. I am just cheap and never ordered them even when getting a discount. I certainly see there benefit on many rigs but talking tiny rigs in question here?
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Unless a cross section of your lower back is more like a rectangle than an oval, then you will find cut in laterals more comfotable and will follow the contours of your body. That is what a harness is designed to do after all.

I do not understand how having cut in laterals could have a negative impact on harness input.

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ianmdrennan

Far as I know, yes.

I don't notice any negative impact at all from them.



thanks for the info. After reading that and finding this video last night (1:44 saying "floating" laterals are great for swooping) I'm at the conclusion now that their negative impact on harness turning (if any) isn't worth my worry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyqAUW1I5qA

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To be fair those floating laterals are not what the original question was about. (which I didn't realize when I first responded was an old thread and there were many responses I hadn't read)

Those will still have a load at the outside corner of the container and overall it shortens the effective length of the lateral from the ring to attachment. I don't know if I am saying that right. I noticed after I found this was an old thread a post by Chuck noting his opinion. I had noted I have never owned a cut in rig so I should not speak on the subject. I do know that when I shortened my lateral by an 1" to 2" total it made a significant difference in the load I could impact through the risers. Input started sooner and stronger as the laterals were so short the container had to stay more square to the harness? Wasn't made for comfort though.

That is why I felt (whether right or wrong) that the cut ins would have a mechanical disadvantage. You are not only lengthening quite a bit allowing more flex but changing the loading point and direction. Now to be fair that rig that I shortened the laterals on was that silly small sexy wings W-0 so I was comparing the shorter laterals on a different smaller rig. Not an identical one. It was a huge difference though and that was the only change in harness size

Another thing is that was sometime ago and when I ordered that I was jumping a wing that had much higher riser pressure than any of the canopies that are being jumped in the circuit today. It wasn't harness input to steer I was concerned with but input to keep in the turn and dive longer and harder. So what some like Chuck noted may not apply with wings that can crank 540's with much more ease than a 270 on some of the earlier designs. Just my thoughts. I could be 180 off.

I do like that floating lateral though!
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Greig474

Bump
just curious if people still feel this way:
"With tiny rigs, the cut-in laterals acually hinder your ability to harness steer your canopy"
i am thinking of ordering a new rig and it seems some manufacturers don't even offer standard laterals any more



I just re-read my longish post from 2008 and still agree that it's pointless to have cut-ins on rigs narrower than your back and it's a hindrance on all size rigs when it comes to hooking up a wingsuit. It seems pretty much every manufacturer has some form of "doubled-up" combination of cut-in with a stiffener that goes straight to the corner of the rig (Jav, Mirage, UPT).

My personal "sport" rigs are both Wings W1's . My work rigs (one Micron and one Odyssey) are both cut for PD 126's and Velo 90's in case you are wondering.

Chuck

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