Re: [pchapman] Skydiver hits tail on exit.23rd August 2008

[stonecolddude 0]

When planning a swoop to insure safety for all an exit/landing order is established. exit first land first. according to pattern (90 180 270 etc) The first to exit was flying a 107 and loading it heavy. I was flying a 135 and also highly loaded. the final 2 jumpers were flying canopies in excess of 170 sq ft and lightly loaded. a hop n pop means jump, get stable and deploy. not jump hold for 20 seconds track up jump run then deploy below another jumper that has exited prior. I was attempting a 270 so my visibility was limited. Got any questions about this contact the PD team and ask how they train.

[packing_jarrett 0]

I agree that jumpers have to discuss delays and wingloadings that pertain to exit order. And maybe even if some jumpers want to spiral as opposed to keeping the spirals to a limit.

But also you have to give way to jumpers that need it. Using an excuse that you attempting a high perf manuever and your visibility is bad is not the brightest. One should know all the variables and account for them.

Personally I try to either be the very first or the very last to land when doing some hiper manuever. Sometimes I end up in the middle and have to make sure I will never conflict with other jumpers in the pattern.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[BMFin 0]

Quote

I was attempting a 270 so my visibility was limited.

So are you saying that flying a pattern for 270 limits your visibility somehow ?

EDIT:

I get also frustrated sometimes when a jumper exiting after me spirals down and after 1000 feet starts flying a straight in approach under me.

But heres the important part:

We have separate landing area for swoopers so normally this isnt a problem, since most of the time the swoop area is only used by swoopers..

I would highly recommed you guys establish a separate swoop area too ( unless you are a 182 DZ or similar..)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I was attempting a 270 so my visibility was limited.

And how is that? Which part? Setup? Getting to your setup?

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

Are you still upset about that jump? It happened well over 3 months ago. I announced I would be going first since I was on a 107 and "stonecolddude" announced he would go second, but did not care to ask others about delays or anything else. The person that he was upset with hopped out and pulled a little below 3 and is an experienced jumper with over 500 jumps and performed a predictable landing pattern and approach like the jumper under the 170 always does. But like was said by someone else, altitude you pull at makes a difference.

[Pendragon 1]

(posting after this part of the thread had been moved from elsewhere)

I think that would have annoyed me too. If you're making hop n pops at 4.5k ft (let's say), there isn't really any excuse for not landing in the same order in which you left the aircraft.

However, there could have been other things at play here (there usually is)

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

Yes, i agree completely, but all that was know is that stonecolddude was doing a high performance landing on a stilleto 135, but how many degrees he was turning or anything else was only known to him. There isnt a reason this should of happened if it was discussed more instead of him trying to call the shots and say this is how it is going to happen. Stonecolddude, there is a way to handle situations and yealling and screaming on the ground after you landed at the person under the 170 is def. not the right thing to do. If anything walk over and talk to him or wait till you have cooled off and take it as a learning lesson. It has happened to me on several occasions. Just because you wanna do a 270 doesnt mean you can or should every jump. Some situations dont allow for it and in those situations you need to do a smaller turn or do a straight in approach.

[Pendragon 1]

Interesting point here though. I wasn't there (obviously) but I can see how someone could be rather emotional about their hp landing getting stiffed on a hop n pop. I think there are many people doing straight-in approaches out there that just don't get it. Somone wants to do hp landings. They take themselves on a hop n pop to get away from everyone else. That IS the skydive for that person. What if the other person couldn't do their freefly dive because someone interefered with that?

The guy who gets cut up on his hp landing from a hop n pop loses his skydive; the ticket, the time and the pack job.

That's not to say I believe that screaming at someone is a good idea. However, there should be some give and take in this game - and I don't always see it either.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

I agree as many of my jumps are hopnpops and hp landings, but on the other hand i talk to the other people doing hop n pops and try and work to get what will be the best exit order. There will be jumps tho where you wont be able to do a hp landing because of miscommunication or some of events happening.....I just really replied to get out some facts......if you are respectful to others they will be respectful back, thats all

[pchapman 261]

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If you're making hop n pops at 4.5k ft (let's say), there isn't really any excuse for not landing in the same order in which you left the aircraft.

I'll disagree in general, but agree under certain circumstances.

The big point is, it all depends on what people expect.

Some seem to expect that if doing hop and pops, you land in the same order.

Others just consider it a bunch of solo jumps, and everyone sorts out their landings as necessary.

I wouldn't expect landing in the same order. That's why from my viewpoint, anyone saying they should land in the same order is an arrogant swooper who wants to own the sky and thinks their way is the only way.

In general there's no expectation in skydiving about who should land in what order.

Now it is different if I'm with some others in the Otter, going out low, over a DZ with a swoop pond, and we talk to each other and find we're all planning to go for the pond. In that case, we can choose to agree that we're going to follow a certain order and space our opening altitudes to facilitate that. And in that case, yes you've got a right to have a serious chat with someone who doesn't "dive the plan".

Maybe some people at a particular DZ are so used to doing these 'swoop stacks' (like 'accuracy stacks') all the time that they forget that it isn't considered normal in general to land in the order of exits. They have to be careful to talk things over and make sure everyone is on the same page -- before the jump.