developed rear riser turning strategy

[JustRelax 0]

Because I did a lot of ground launching/hill swooping I became confident in steering with my rear risers and now when back to skydiving I do this until my final approach, when i finally use my brakes.

I'd be interested in what others think of this. I only have 130 skydive jumps, but about 10 kilometres of groundlaiunching/swooping down hills and mountain slopes. My wing loading on a vengeance is ~1.35

From my point of view it seems a very sensible way to turn because it keeps the speed up and feels really smooth? I read the article on the front page by Brian Germain and think I get the same effect and I do lean in to the turns, as he suggests.

The effect is I come in pretty fast it seems, from a few comments.

I think this is because when I use the rear risers for turns, it wouldn't slow anything down, would it? It just creates a curve in the overall wing. I do also loosen my chest strap, which helps create a flatter wing. Feels natural and smooth turning the corners.

What I do for landing is use the rear risers for my turns and as i come in for my final I let go of the rears at about 50 feet - there is a bit of a drop, which I take is a levelling off of angle of attack. So I am still pretty fast i think at this point because the last turn was at speed - I then just use the brakes for the final levelling off at about 15 feet and adjustment as i skim the ground and shut it down.

I havent really seen this approach talked about and have read about the dangers of using rear risers - but as I said i got used to this when groundlaunching plus have tested the stall point - the stall point is way away from the amount of rear riser input I use for my turns.

What do you think?

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Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'd be interested in what others think of this. I only have 130 skydive jumps, but about 10 kilometres of groundlaiunching/swooping down hills and mountain slopes. My wing loading on a vengeance is ~1.35

Well, there's enough WL nazi here....

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I think this is because when I use the rear risers for turns, it wouldn't slow anything down, would it?

Than try to explain why is your canopy turning.

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What I do for landing is use the rear risers for my turns and as i come in for my final I let go of the rears at about 50 feet - there is a bit of a drop, which I take is a levelling off of angle of attack. So I am still pretty fast i think at this point because the last turn was at speed - I then just use the brakes for the final levelling off at about 15 feet and adjustment as i skim the ground and shut it down.

I havent really seen this approach talked about and have read about the dangers of using rear risers - but as I said i got used to this when groundlaunching plus have tested the stall point - the stall point is way away from the amount of rear riser input I use for my turns.

What do you think?

Than try to explain what is the gain compared with using breaks.

[JustRelax 0]

Its turning faster because the wing is more shaped like a propeller when bent with the rear risers rather than a greater edge curve effect caused by breaks - which would slow down the wing more than the propeller shape. That is the advantage that I think exists, so it is a smoother faster turn than using the brakes.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Nice try! So try again! Why is your propeller turning?

[NeverTooLow 0]

As you let the canopy "recover" after your last rearriserinput, I see no sens in using rears for the low final turn. Swoopers do use rears for leveling out the canopy and swich to toggels in the end without dropping.

Flying with toggles,rears,fronts and body is a good idea, use what you got. You probably do so in GL already.

If you want more speed for landing, use fronts for a real swoop.(not sure if 130 jumps is right to experiment with all that, though)

Good luck
Rome

[JustRelax 0]

I have suggested that pulling on rear rises in a turn creates a more propeller shape to the wing rather a greater edge curve effect caused by using the brakes. This is my thought as to how a rear rise turn feels smoother and faster to me.

It seems the normal way discussed is to use front risers, but then I am not trying to get maximum speed necessarily, just an efficient turn. Below I conclude that if I was turning right and put on some rear right riser and front left riser at the same time that might be the fastest turn/dive sequence.

The Write brothers invented the modern propeller - they also found that the relative angle of attack from the forward movement of the aircraft was different for all points along the length of the blade, thus it was necessary to introduce a twist along its length. This is a priciple that carries over to when you “turn” a wing, I believe.

I mentioned that I do lean into (bank) the turn and that is a part of turning efficiency as I understad it, because it is banking the wing as aircrafts banks due to to the centripetal force.

Angle of attach is the angle between where the chord line of the airfoil is pointing and where the airfoil is going. So, by making a propeller shape the angle of attack for the turning part of the canopy is most effcient. Both parts turn, don't they because if you bank the canopy (if I am turning right) the right end moves back a bit, with the left end moving forward more so. Hmm, something just occurred to me *.

I'll diverge to windsurfing wings. When you rig a windsurfer wing for high wind/speed, you rig it so the (top of the sail) end of the wing tapers away from the lower wing camber shape. You see the same in bird wing shapes on windy days at the beach – the feathers taper back to give a propeller shape. As I understand it the end of the wing is letting wind spill over the wing more to reduce lift not needed – and also because with wind going over the wing fast the centre point of lift shifts back, so flatter wings gives faster forward movement.

Because a flatter wing gives faster forward movement using risers instead of brakes, must be more efficient for speed.

In my winsurfer sail/bird wing in strong wind explanation, I am decribing a propeller shape actually. With propellers there is a twisting out along the wing, so as to increase the thrust. That is the same thing as the windsurfing/bird wing. Whether you define it as thrust or spillange to counter forward movement and lift. I am leading to the point that a propeller shape is more efficient in a turn because the outer wing tip is moving aound faster than the part of the wing on the inside of the turn. With the outer wing end moving faster, if it is propeller shaped then its a faster smoother turn.

Back to the propeller shape. We use it do an efficient fast 360 in freefall and actually with one arm up and the other down, counterbalances with the oposite leg movement gives you the fastest spin, doesn't it?

So if you can make a wing into a slight propeller shape on a turn it will be more efficient. * what would be the most efficient proppeller shape – now there is another question?

Well. If I am turning right and pull on the right rear riser, I get a propeller shape. If instead, when I want to turn right I pull on the left front riser, then a similar propeller shape occurs. Its the same thing almost, except making the shape with the rear risers is less of a dive, I would think. Maybe that is why in swooping there is more talk of front riser turns, because that would in theory be faster because it adds the dive/power. Take this further * because of what occurred to me about banking causing the outer wing in a turn to turn faster and forward AND the inside wing actuallyy turning less relatively (in a bird hovering, you would see it go back when they turn), then theoretically the fastest and most efficient turn would be (if I turn right) some right rear riser pull eg 1", and more so front left riser pull eg 3". Likewise if I turn left, some left rear riser pull, and more so front right riser pull. Bothe would be adjusted in relation for a slower or faster turn. Ill be trying this out! Thanks for getting me to thing about this.

PS aboput my jump numbers. I am not trying to be a swooper. I just love the canopy flyiong part and because of my groundlaunching experience I think I developed my canopy skills quite a bit. That is why at my jump numbers I am interested in canopy flying. Actually I have always had my eye on wing suit flying, but I know my jump numbers are too low. Instead I have just got myself a tracking suit from phoenix fly. It seems I very much like the flying part.

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Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[JustRelax 0]

Thanks. Yes, I have watched some canopy pilots switching from rears to brakes without dropping. I will refine it. When they let go of the rears they trasition quickly by pulling the barke handles outwards and so the transition in the wing is smooth. I just haven't refined that yet.

>Flying with toggles,rears,fronts and body is a good >idea, use what you got.
Yes, that is what I have concluded.

>If you want more speed for landing, use fronts for a >real swoop.(not sure if 130 jumps is right to >experiment with all that, though)

Yes I think even a combiantion of front and rear risers ina turn would be the most efficient theoretically.
I explained in my othe rpost that I am not rying to be a swooper and my jump numbers make that not wise. There is a difference between diving at the ground as swoopers do and ground lanching where once you settle it is a navigation over train as in the final swoop along the ground. so groundlaunching has given me canopy skills but not driving towards the ground and pulling out skills, which is what I see skydiving swooping is about.

________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Eh, you are terrible!!!

If you can not describe in 2 sentences you should get your book and read it again.

Using breaks: you increase the angle of attack of the wings, that side flies slower, other side flies faster, you got a turning momentum. You are not a fixed wing aircraft, preassure is droppping in the breaked side.

What is happening if you pull rears? You are about to re-trim your canopy for higher angle of attack, more resistance, slowing down. That is the reason using it for swoop. You force the canopy slow down, recover, meanwhile you swing back under the wing.

You can find lots of reading front riser vs. toggle swoop. See there, even toggle monkey can have speed....

Using rears to turn on final is even have a risk of high speed stall.

If you can do than do harness turns, they are the most effective.

If you want to you can land with rears or do a rears to toggles transfer. Its a leap of faith.

I don't really think that rear riser turn is the right tool for turing to final or turning next to the ground.

You'd rather read that book again. I hope you could get the true message of it.

[ruudwas 0]

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even a combiantion of front and rear risers ina turn would be the most efficient theoretically

that is called harnas turn....

[JustRelax 0]

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even a combiantion of front and rear risers ina turn would be the most efficient theoretically

that is called harnas turn....

Yes, harness turning is the same thing. I see, on the forum, some people loosen leg straps and push them down thighs to have a greater affect when harness turning. It is the same thing to help it by using front and rear risers as I suggest, isn't it?

________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[marks 0]

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even a combiantion of front and rear risers ina turn would be the most efficient theoretically

that is called harnas turn....

Yes, harness turning is the same thing. I see, on the forum, some people loosen leg straps and push them down thighs to have a greater affect when harness turning. It is the same thing to help it by using front and rear risers as I suggest, isn't it?

I do not know where you got the idea that we loosen our leg straps for using our harness to turn. but you need to get that idea far far out of your mind. that is completely false, and dangerous.

[JustRelax 0]

My misquoting - I meant it looks like some swoopers have their legs straps loose enough (not loosen them) then push them down their thighs a bit in order to have more radical harness turns.

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Trying to sum up the feedback - I used rear risers for swooping down hills for groundlaunching, which means you can go down hills such as 30 degree gradient - I steered with them as well as adjusting swoop up and down - it kept speed up and means you can have nice manouvers over the contours of the hill - i would only use breaks if I needed to gain hight quickly. So I developed confidence in this method. I also note that a Vengeance, which is my wing, has a good range for rear riser input. From the feedback, I end up thinking a conbination of banking turns, using harnes and some rear and front riser input (would be rear right-front left or rear left-front right) is the most effective for turning. The difference from ground launching would be using the front risers, which I couldn't do because of the nature of that kind of swoop. In skydiving it is going to be easier to use front risers. well I'll try adding the front risers and see how it feels. PS This is not so I can skydive swoop, but just for my turns generally.

thanks for the feedback
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________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[crazydiver 0]

I think there is so much misinformation on this thread from nearly everyone that I don't even know how to respond to much of it.

Cheers,
Travis

[Chrisky 0]

Dude; What you call a propeller is the same thing as a standard wing; it creates a lift in one direction.
(propeller=vertical arrangement=foward lift=thrust ; wings=horizontal arrangement=upward lift).

So if you describe "to get the canopy in a more propeller shape" i take what you want to say is you create more lift with less drag. but that is not true for rear risers. By using rears you just change the trim angle of the canopy, changing the attack angle (as phoenixlpr pointed out already).

Pulling down one frontriser and the opposite rear riser to turn one way to give you more efficient turns is a really bad idea, as it will distort the profile quite strongly, creating way more drag and opposing turn inputs. It will at the least dangerous just make your canopy unstable.

The most efficient turn in respect to glide is a harness turn, as it will only slightly distort the canopy and keep it in full flight. You could combine it with a bit of (double) rear riser input for a flatter general glide, but i dont know if that's a good idea.

I highly recommend you to not apply the book knowledge of windsurfing to canopy flight. While physics always apply, the wings differ. For a good read, check out Brian Germains book.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[JustRelax 0]

Yeah, thanks. I got the whole thing wrong. Also your explanation is clear, so thanks.

I did a week of skydiving this week, so was testing riser turns and asking about my crazy idea.

One thing I did was run my idea past an experienced crew pilot. He said in CREW they use the front and rear opposites when they want to sit a canopy in one place. So obviously that is not efficient flight, but a stable stall effect.

Doing some relative work, reinforced the benefit of using rear risers for lift compared with other canopies normal flight.

Yes, I understand harness turns are most efficient because there is the least change in the wing shape and that combined with either rear riser or fron riser turns is pretty efficient.

The CREW guy I spoke to reackons using a hard rear only to spiral is very fast way to get down.

it seems front risers are the most efficient for speed with harnes turn because it adds the dive. That adds up to how soopers use fronts with harnes to get speed, and rears to plane out.

I guess to get any more knowleadgeable on the subject it'd be good for me to get into measuring with JumpTrack or somethign like that.

Thanks for the feedback, while I get my ideas sorted out.

________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.