Need opinions - Sabre2 @ 0.8-0.9 (first rig, A lic. jumper)

[Chubba 0]

I could do with some input from canopy pilots around here.

After trying a bunch of canopies, I have settled on the Sabre2, but the sizing/wingloading is the decision I need to make.

I'm ~170lbs exit weight, I have 25 jumps/A lic and I'm currently jumping around between different canopies in the 190 range... I haven't actually been able to fly a Sabre2, but I have flown the Sabre1 and I love it and all the opinions seem to agree that the 2nd generation is superior so I'm assuming I won't be dissapointed... somebody pull me up here if my logic is flawed.

I'm struggling on whether I should go for the 190 (0.8-0.9) or 170 (being 1.0). It seems like 1.0 wingloading is the "standard" for your first rig and I RARELY see people going under this, more often then not people are on 1.1-1.2 or so. I feel comfortable under the 190 @ 25 jumps yet still challenged that I have no desire to fly a 170 at the moment.

I got a bad history of broken ankles and busted knee's and any landing that lets me walk away to jump another day is a good landing in my books.

I can't stress this enough, my body is a piece of crap

Ok, enough fluff... basically my question is...

Will this canopy/wingloading allow me to improve my canopy skills over the next ~100-200?

Or am I making the wrong decision by going larger/docile and sticking to the safeside? Is there only so much you can do with such a lightly loaded canopy? I am going to buy a nice rig, close to new/good quality so it's a serious investment in my skydiving future. With gear hire @ $40 a jump at my DZ it would cost an arm and a leg to possibly to get comfortable in the 170 range.

I asked my instructors before anybody suggests it but they're biased, one flys a 190 and the other a 210... they see no problem with loading light. Second opinions don't hurt though.

Bottom line, in my logic... if the 190 is boring as hell after a few jumps, at least I get cheap jumps and my landings will be nice and soft. The 170 if I CAN fly it, would be more fun and a better investment, that's IF I don't break myself.

Thanks in advance guys!

[mdrejhon 8]

I had the 190 versus 170 debate myself for quite some time...

In the end, I just kept jumping until around #57 before I got myself the 170.

If your instructors agree, AND you are already doing great standups on the 190 for a few dozen jumps AND you can make it to a canopy coaching course (Scott Miller, Brian Germain, et al), I don't see any reason 170 is a bad choice and I'm sure many would agree. It would probably last longer. The "1.0" seems to be the sweet spot, while anything above that is being somewhat aggressive (unforunate norm, in the view of many).

Then again, I am naive in my knowledge of your situation and 170 is a dangerous choice. It's wholly possible, especially if your body has some fragilities I am not aware of...

But I can say I was in a similiar conundrum: 190 versus 170. I'm still flying my 170 -- happy with it even after 200+ jumps on the same canopy, and was glad I went 170 instead of 190, and at the same time, glad I didn't too quickly downsize to 150.

EDIT: Might want to pay attention to soft openings, if you have a beat-up body. I think Sabre and Sabre 2 might actually end up becoming poor choices -- unless you're perfectly fine with their relatively brisk openings. Some open harder than others, or randomly give you slam-opening. You may want to demo jump some pillow-openers such as Safire2, etc.

Disclaimer: As usual for these types of dropzone.com posts -- don't listen to me directly and do talk to your instructors, pass things by them.

[Chubba 0]

Another 25 jumps @ $40 gear hire is a $1000, that's why I'm leaning towards buying very soon rather then later, @$80 a jump I'm only fitting in 2 - 3 a weekend at best.

I guess another way to rephrase the question: What can I do on a Sabre2 170 that I can't on a 190? Or is the whole decision based purely on speed.

I know wind penetration comes into it, but so far it hasn't been a problem.

[mdrejhon 8]

If you can plane-out a 190 at 0.8 wingloading, then that might be just all fine in a good compromise of a safe canopy while having a pillow landing on a good flare..

Plane out -- meaning zero vertical velocity before touching down (lack of thump effect on foot, the stepping-into-pillows effect that's often not found at wingload 0.6 but found at wingload 1.0 proper flares). Some say that the sweet spot where planeout begins to occur is about 0.7 or 0.8 wingload, so you're right at the edge of that range...

Again, talk to the canopy pilots who's familiar with these effects... (And got lots of experience with big canopies in these ranges of wingloadings)

[AggieDave 6]

A Sabre2 190 holds serious resale value.

Why not go with the 190 and put at least 100 jumps on it before moving down to the 170. The increase in your skill set before you downsize will be obvious to you and you will appreciate the smaller steps with better learning. This is instead of a big step with scarier learning that takes longer due to being behind the canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Chubba 0]

Thanks for the reply, very encouraging.

If it ends up being a tad slow and boring, at least I can fine tune my pattern/accuracy and my landing right? I want to be in the sport for the longterm.

In regards to the plane out, I feel the flare has enough power... I definitely know what you mean though, I love how the Sabre lands compared to some of the raggy F1-11's.

[danielcroft 2]

From one noob to another, there's a lot you can do on any canopy. Check out the downsizing checklist that Billvon wrote: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47
Have a think about the different types of turns & techniques that you can perform under canopy and like someone suggested go do a canopy control course (I did Germain's).
I personally don't think you'd be bored with a 190. I thought I might be (I'm about 185 exit weight so .97 ish) but I'm really not. It's a gradual process for me to find how the canopy works and is quite fun.

[Chubba 0]

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From one noob to another, there's a lot you can do on any canopy. Check out the downsizing checklist that Billvon wrote: http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=47

That's what I was looking for It was my plan to fly the hell out of one canopy before downsizing but I never see/hear of anyone doing this on lightly loaded canopies... all my mates loaded at 1.0 for their first rig, then by 100 jumps they're at 1.1-1.2 and upwards.

It made me rethink... is there a reason why people don't fly larger canopies for hundreds of jumps? I've seen a few people stick with 1.0 wingloadings for 100+ jumps, that's why I thought about the 170, like it's the magical sweep spot.

I've never seen anyone stay with a canopy loaded under 1.0 for any decent length of time.

[skydemon2 0]

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I've never seen anyone stay with a canopy loaded under 1.0 for any decent length of time.

Most wont because they will get bored with them, most people who like to fly their canopies will downsize to go faster. Faster turns, landings etc. If because of your condition you dont want to go faster then you could jump the same wingloading forever, you dont have to downsize. If your renting gear try a 170 and see how you like it, if you feel confident that is, the difference between .9 and 1.0 is very minimal and should be able to be handled by most. You will notice snappier turns and more forward speed. I jumped the same size canopy for 1100 jumps and didnt really see the need to downsize till I lost some more weight!

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[AggieDave 6]

Every single thing you ever want to do under canopy is based on a solid pattern with good accuracy skills. Want to be a pro swooper? Got to be able to fly a pattern and be accurate or you will never be consistent.

Good luck and find a local/regional canopy mentor that can help you learn the right way.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[danielcroft 2]

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That's what I was looking for It was my plan to fly the hell out of one canopy before downsizing but I never see/hear of anyone doing this on lightly loaded canopies... all my mates loaded at 1.0 for their first rig, then by 100 jumps they're at 1.1-1.2 and upwards.

It made me rethink... is there a reason why people don't fly larger canopies for hundreds of jumps? I've seen a few people stick with 1.0 wingloadings for 100+ jumps, that's why I thought about the 170, like it's the magical sweep spot.

I've never seen anyone stay with a canopy loaded under 1.0 for any decent length of time.

I asked a similar question in the downsizing history thread but got no answer.

I don't think people generally downsize because they've maxed out their old one. It's more about ego than necessity IMO (warning: opinion based on no experience).

In a month or two I might think about downsizing but that depends on my proficiency. It also depends on what my experienced friends think of my landings & canopy control. I've already discussed it with a few of them and they think I'd be ok but I don't think I'm ready yet. My flare isn't consistent and in no wind I tend to have issues flaring a few feet too high. I'm ok at PLFing (the other day I had a friend in front of me on the ground who heard me say "um... PLF" after I flared too high, it was a good PLF).

I guess what I'm saying is that you should wait & see. Going to the 170 doesn't give you the opportunity to evaluate your skills. A student canopy flies differently to a regular canopy too. You may also try asking around the DZ to see if anyone you know has a 190 you could borrow for a while. I'm lucky enough to have a very generous friend lending me the Spectre I'm flying & another friend is lending me the container. I bought the Vigil in it and will probably be buying my own 2nd hand rig in the next couple of months from another person I know.

For the record, I open higher than most people (4500ft) and I take the time to work on drills because it's really fun.

[Pendragon 1]

Not entirely. One reason why people rush to the 1.0-1.2 mark is because they're fed up going backwards when the uppers are strong! An apparent rush to downsize from there can be ego, or just an enthusiastic canopy pilot.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It made me rethink... is there a reason why people don't fly larger canopies for hundreds of jumps? I've seen a few people stick with 1.0 wingloadings for 100+ jumps, that's why I thought about the 170, like it's the magical sweep spot.

Sure. Most people get into skydiving because it's exciting. Smaller parachutes are more exciting to fly and land.

Classic accuracy with an optimal wing-loading around .7 pounds/square foot is also fun too but in a different way.

Backing up or coming straight down with strong uppers isn't a problem; you just need to make sure your spot is far enough up wind.

[Jumpah 0]

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I got a bad history of broken ankles and busted knee's and any landing that lets me walk away to jump another day is a good landing in my books.

I can't stress this enough, my body is a piece of crap



Bottom line, in my logic... if the 190 is boring as hell after a few jumps, at least I get cheap jumps and my landings will be nice and soft. The 170 if I CAN fly it, would be more fun and a better investment, that's IF I don't break myself.

Thanks in advance guys!

I didn't read any replies yet...

If I were you, I'd get the bigger 190 if these are indeed your only choices. If your body can't handle a crash, you need the safest equipment you can. Hell, if I were you I'd even consider a 210.

The downside to bigger canopies is that it limits what winds you jump in (or at least you have to be real good at spotting so that you can deal with them correctly).

Your question is set up in such a way that it implies that you want someone to reassure you the 170 will be OK. You can get hurt on both. You haven't jumped a 170, much less a 170 saber 2. Can you land the 190 in the peas on every jump? How are you in a 1/2 brake landing? How is your PLF?

A friend broke his ankle last year and as a result he now wears rugged boots with tons of ankle support...you should consider something like that too. They aren't sexy, but skydiving isn't about fashion lol

So...stay on the big canopies for a bit longer is my advice. The freefall is the same.

Don't take this as me riding you...I want you to have fun and be able to jump every weekend you want instead of being laid up with a break for a few months and possibly having to give up the sport permanently.

[icevideot 0]

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A Sabre2 190 holds serious resale value.

Why not go with the 190 and put at least 100 jumps on it before moving down to the 170. The increase in your skill set before you downsize will be obvious to you and you will appreciate the smaller steps with better learning. This is instead of a big step with scarier learning that takes longer due to being behind the canopy.

Very well said.

Throw my vote in with this one.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Chubba 0]

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Don't take this as me riding you...I want you to have fun and be able to jump every weekend you want instead of being laid up with a break for a few months and possibly having to give up the sport permanently.

That sums it up nicely, I want to jump every weekend, the rig is primarily so I get cheaper jump prices (essentially twice as many for my buck).

If the only downside is the wind penetration at lighter loadings I got no problems with that... it's a Cessna 182 dropzone, 5 people in the air and everyones pretty damn good at spotting, I had no problems landing on target on a 270 in high winds.

Now when I trek out to the turbine DZ (Caravans) it may be a different matter... but if I'm going to land off, may as well have a bigger canopy

[repcool 2]

I always hear "wind penetration" as a benefit of downsizing. The folks I see with higher winger loadings seem to sink below me in a hurry and are at equal risk of landing off, regardless of exit order, so is this myth busted or confirmed?

[danielcroft 2]

Isn't there the advantage of better resistance to turbulence too?

I'm not advocating getting a smaller canopy so you can jump in ugly weather, that's just stupid.

I'm interested in the theory of it which is (could well be wrong here, I am a noob after all ) that a faster canopy has more pressure inside the cells which therefore resist turbulence better.

In any case being that you have low jump numbers like me, we should both be avoiding that kind of weather if at all possible anyway.

[Jumpah 0]

Yah, and you'll hear comments like "so when you getting rid of the tandem rig?". =)

Bottom line is that you just got started...75 jumps under a slower bigger canopy won't take long and you'll still love your jumps...better to be bored in the air than in a chair...

You've got a good attitude, keep on the safer side and think long term. Have fun!

[superwoman8433 0]

I was on a Sabre2 170 loading it at .9 for about 200 jumps. Then I downsized to a 150. I don't regret anything!

I learned how to fly the 170 in ALL conditions which made me a better and safer pilot. Even though I sometimes ended up landing backing up or just coming straight down, it helped me to really understand my canopy and how to fly it.

If it was my choice, I would choose the 190 because it will be more forgiving if you have any problems. I would NEVER buy a smaller canopy when I haven't mastered the larger size.

[wngarner 0]

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A Sabre2 190 holds serious resale value.

Why not go with the 190 and put at least 100 jumps on it before moving down to the 170. The increase in your skill set before you downsize will be obvious to you and you will appreciate the smaller steps with better learning. This is instead of a big step with scarier learning that takes longer due to being behind the canopy.

Very well said.

Throw my vote in with this one.

Here here - I spent 300 jumps sub-1 (given that to be a 1.0 I had to be on a 150), but I took 2 canopy courses a year on these canopies and honed in on accuracy in stronger winds as well as started working on high speed approaches (hell, i started getting that 170 to make some noise on approach!!). And then, at 300 jumps when I moved to the Sabre2 150, I have never had so much fun with both accuracy and speed - I can put it down in a backyard if I have to, and I get better plane-outs than alot of people on smaller canopies with similar or even higher wing-loadings.

Driving a Ferrari over a Honda doesn't MAKE you a better driver...you have to become a better driver to appreciate what makes a Ferrari more fun!

- ever the spazz

Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart, give yourself to it...

[hackish 8]

My last 60 jumps have been on a sabre2 170 loaded at about 1.25. I find the openings are sensitive to how you pack and whether you follow PD's instructions. I wouldn't call a sabre2 a hard opener but it's not hard to tell if I packed it or if someone else did.

As to whether it's an apropriate choice for you, nobody on the interweb can tell you that - rely on your local instructors. They know how well you fly. I'm happy with my choice and it works for me. In 60 jumps I've only started to scratch the surface of what it can do.

-Michael

[Jumpah 0]

In general you are right...local instructors that have seen you in action are best suited to make recommendations to students.

The person posting the inquiry has stated that their ankles are bad and their body is a "piece of crap" and has had problems in the past. So in this case, the recommendation to stay on a larger canopy to help reduce the risk of injury is valid no matter who states it.

[cefey 1]

I will recomend you to test a Safire2. I was very sure to go for a Sabre2, before I got one ride on Safire2.

But anyway. I dont think you need less wingload then 1.-1,1, but you have consider how high your dropzone is, wind conditions, how careful you are on turns, espesialy low turns (I never turn lower then 200 foot, unless I practise flatturns) how good you on flare. How can you land in downwind, crosswind, tyrbulens, and stuff like that.
Ask you instructor, people who see how you fly.
They can tell you much better what you need.

Ask you self how careful and good you are with canopy. And be very very hard on you self with ansver! From 1 till 10.
If you get 9 or 10, you can load 1.2 with no problem.
if you get 7-8, go for 1.1, 5-6 under 1. If you get 1-2-3 you should considering to giveup skydiving:)
Also, if you can feel differents (opening, flying, glide ratio, respons on toggles, flare) on chutes after jump 1-2 times with it, from another simular one, you are good. If not, dont wingload it more then 1.1

But speak with your instructors, and get a ride on Safire2.

Blue skys and soft landings to all!