300lb hma if you have this please read

[frost 1]

I was asked if i reline my stuff at 100-150 jumps. No, I dont.

PD's 300s ARE very thin... as they said, 150 jumps max, but seen break at 80. But other HMAs that i have seen are thicker and can probably go longer. I dont use the 300s, the ones that Marat and all the PD pilots use. I have the 340 (whatever they mark them as) on my JVX... Those are a bit thicker. Same as MEL's.

I did break the blue set of MELs HMA after about 400 jumps. 4 lines broke. I had two more lineset of his. One went 350-400 jumps with no issues the other i sold at about 200. Both still had plenty of life in them. I should say that the first lineset was jumped mostly with and RDS slider and second lineset never saw an RDS, but almost always was taken to terminal. Third was a mix of both regular and RDS slider, but mostly RDS. And has been wet a couple of times too.

I will continue to jump my HMA lines after 150 jumps, paying VERY careful attention to their condition. I will probably NOT push them passed 350 though. I just sent my JVX for a reline with about 300 jumps on the lineset that was showing some signs of wear. Paul R. looked at it and said it still had about 80-100 jumps left in it. I trust his opinion, he has seen a lot of that stuff. But fuck it. There is always the "what if?". I dont want to be that guy. You know what i mean?

[rhys 0]

I know my choice is my choice, and i will change my lines when I see fit, I just don't agree with such conservative recommendations, that is my choice.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

I know my choice is my choice, and i will change my lines when I see fit, I just don't agree with such conservative recommendations, that is my choice.

I don't recall saying otherwise. I do recall saying that I chose differently. We all have different risk thresholds.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[masterrigger1 2]

Kolla, Ian, and John,

Quote

7. Many of MEL's comments about our 300 HMA suspension lines are incorrect. The supplier mentioned (CSR) does not manufacture any HMA line for PD. The information about our suppliers for that line is proprietary and will not be disclosed.

I think there are only three of my comments that are in question regarding this thread, PD, and your line.

1. Is your 300lb material using the manufacturer's rating or PD's own rating?

Note: I just think you are being conservative and using your own.

2. The manufacturer of your material.

Note: PD may not NOW buy your Technora from CSR, but you have bought Technora from them in the past as per CSR.

3.UV protection for the smaller diameter line material. Is it good, bad or indifferent?





8. To address MEL's comment about the 300 line being a 350 line: It is important to understand that the advertised RATING of a line is not the same as BREAKING STRENGTH of a line. Each line manufacturer sells their line with a rated strength, met by a process that may have some variation from time to time. In other words, they apply a safety factor below the breaking strength to arrive at their rated strength, to allow for minor variation from one lot of another. How much of a safety factor is actually applied does vary from one supplier to another, so arguing whether it is 300 or 350 is a bit of a moot point.

Quote

I agree that it is very important to know the true rating of the line.

The manufacturers use a derating procedure to name the line.It usually is 85% of the actual recorded breaking strength.

The difference between 350lb and 300lb is that the 350lb roughly 1/5 (17%) again stronger than the 300.
Please note my earlier post regarding the 280lb material we use and its jump numbers.

Those numbers are with a 27 cell canopy only!
We have never lined a 21 cell with 280, nor will we ever. The mathmatical numbers are just two low.


If you are truly using 300lb on a 21 cell canopy, then there is no doubt why you are quoting such low jump numbers!

As far as your numbering of line material, you quote 825 Spectra in-house and other places when it actually is 725lb.
I bought some from PD with the manufacturer's label still on the reel.

So that leads one to believe that you use your own numbering system on other line materials as well, not the manufacturer's.

MEL appears to claim that his "blue coated HMA line" is superior due to that treatment offering better UV protection.

***

I do claim that.
If the lines are not abused by using an RDS, or some non-caring individual,or a line cutting tension knot; the possibility exsist that the lines will have longer life. If they have a longer life, then they need all the care that one can provide.

The coating that we use is made from Teflon. Teflon has two unique features. One is the UV protection. The other is that it offers some wear resistance to the fiber.

When the line material is this thin, you literally start splitting hairs on ways to preserve them.


Just for history's sake, when we installed the first competition technora line sets ever, it was with 340lb. Technora.

We improved the material about 10 months later with a higher fiber count. That improvement yielded better results and a new rating of 350lb .

We have stayed the course with this material and will continue to do so.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RMURRAY 1]

so, just to be clear --- the line that broke causing the injury was smaller (lighter, rated less) than the line that I have on my JVX (350 HMA) and that you sell a lot of (350 HMA coated). The line that broke is not availalbe to the general public. Also, because there are less of them, putting ultra thin lines on a 21 cell is even more risky than on a a 27 cell. This that right?

Rob

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

so, just to be clear --- the line that broke causing the injury was smaller (lighter, rated less) than the line that I have on my JVX (350 HMA)

According to John @ PD, that's the deal there.

Quote

.......and that you sell a lot of (350 HMA coated).

There are a few other people buying it and using it to make their own line sets also.


The line that broke is not availalbe to the general public.

Quote

Again yes, according to John.

Also, because there are less of them, putting ultra thin lines on a 21 cell is even more risky than on a a 27 cell. This that right?
***

I think so...simple math applies here! Less tensile strength .... less lines...if given the same suspended weight/wing loading.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[rhys 0]

Quote

:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


so, just to be clear --- the line that broke causing the injury was smaller (lighter, rated less) than the line that I have on my JVX (350 HMA)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


According to John @ PD, that's the deal there.

That brings some clarity, I didn't read/take it that way.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[raymod2 1]

I am disappointed that PD is being secretive about the source, construction, and methodology of rating their HMA lines. I would think safety trumps competitive advantage in this case.

Another thought that I haven't seen discussed here is the total mass of the jumper. I let a friend who outweighs me by at least 30 pounds jump my JVX and he broke 3 HMA lines on the first jump. Marat isn't exactly a featherweight either. Maybe heavier jumpers should consider using thicker HMA lines.

[Kolla 0]

The line on the canopy in question IS the line PD sells.

What John is saying is that we don't make it available the same way we make other line types available. The 300 HMA line sets are can not be bought as "kits", they must be installed at PD.
We try our best to make sure that people requesting that line know the pros and cons and will not hesitate to recommend heavier line if the jumper is not a competitive swooper.
I am always surprised at how many people request 300 HMA reline, even jumpers that claim to be conservative and have no interest in swooping .

Blue Skies Magazine

[marks 0]

Quote

I am disappointed that PD is being secretive about the source, construction, and methodology of rating their HMA lines. I would think safety trumps competitive advantage in this case.

Another thought that I haven't seen discussed here is the total mass of the jumper. I let a friend who outweighs me by at least 30 pounds jump my JVX and he broke 3 HMA lines on the first jump. Marat isn't exactly a featherweight either. Maybe heavier jumpers should consider using thicker HMA lines.

P.D. would not offer this AT ALL not long ago. so be nice! at least if you compete, you can get the factory to make these for you now. this was not the case not to long ago. It took some bitching, but they did it. don't make them take it away now.

[Blink 0]

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but I've heard a big difference is the cascaded/non-cascaded lines. I was told the cascade puts a weak point into the line, and the non-cascaded lines were outlasting the cascaded ones by a long shot (several hundred jumps).

Anyone have any information on this?

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

I am disappointed that PD is being secretive about the source, construction, and methodology of rating their HMA lines. I would think safety trumps competitive advantage in this case.

It is called business. They do their due diligence and set parameters on how the gear they sell should be used. In this case, the gear was used far outside of the recommendations they put forward. The only thing that should be disappointing, is that the parameters were not followed.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I am always surprised at how many people request 300 HMA reline, even jumpers that claim to be conservative and have no interest in swooping .

Kolla, you've been in this business too long to still be surprised by this.

A huge percentage of jumpers just have to have the newest, shiny-est, bling bling, no matter how unnecessary or unproven.

Sheep.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[frost 1]

Quote

MEL appears to claim that his "blue coated HMA line" is superior due to that treatment offering better UV protection.

Quote

I do claim that.
If the lines are not abused by using an RDS, or some non-caring individual,or a line cutting tension knot; the possibility exsist that the lines will have longer life. If they have a longer life, then they need all the care that one can provide.

The coating that we use is made from Teflon. Teflon has two unique features. One is the UV protection. The other is that it offers some wear resistance to the fiber.

When the line material is this thin, you literally start splitting hairs on ways to preserve them.

I dont have nearly the amount of experience with HMA line sets as you or PD... But if anyone interested in the subject, simple internet research on this will show that UV DOES have a strong impact on these fibers. And the amount of time the lines are exposed to the sun during regular jumping is considerable and adds up quickly. No question in my mind that there is a negative effect of UV rays on these super thin lines. It makes total sense to me to use anything to preserve their life.

Thanks to all who have shared good info on this topic!

[Xwoop 0]

Quote

.... The 300 HMA line sets are can not be bought as "kits", they must be installed at PD...

I do well understand why you have this kind of policy, but it makes it impossible for swoopers outside US to get 300 lines on their velos..

I wouldn't have time (or money) to wait my velo travel back and forth from europe every 100 or 200 jumps.

[pchapman 261]

Quote

simple internet research on this will show that UV DOES have a strong impact on these fibers. And the amount of time the lines are exposed to the sun

One may want to be careful about distinguishing the overall effect of UV on the fibres vs. that on the entire woven line. I haven't done the research and don't have answers, but it seems to be a question that isn't asked enough?