Bottom End of Swoop

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

I have been told by some swoopers they use their rears on every jump to pull out of the recovery arch. Do you? If you do, why do you do it? Do you see better performance out of it? I jump a katana loaded at 1.7 and dont use rears unless I am a little low. I have several jumps on a velo96 and didnt use rears on that either. Just cause of what people do and why they do it, thanx!

Blue Skies,
Shane

[wetswooper 0]

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dont use rears unless I am a little low.

You have some serious misunderstandings here..

If you are low, (I don't know what you mean by a little..) use your brakes.
.....especially when you're not used to using your rears on every jump.
If an experienced swooper is a little low, he can level out with the rears, but anything more he knows to use the brakes.

When you have enough training and knowledge, and everything goes just excellent on your recovery ARC, then it's the time to apply some rears.

And btw, if you don't know what are the benefits and dangers of using rears, you shouldn't be nowhere near using velocity. Actually reading your post doesn't convince me that you should be jumping even Katana.
Sorry about this, but it's about basic understanding of the canopy flight that everyone under anything considered a high performance canopy MUST have.

And then your question,

Main reason for using rears is that it doesn't distort the airfoil (i.e. not causing so much extra drag) as much as using the brakes. This means you maintain your forward speed better. Think about the shape of your canopy, rears vs. brakes....
BUT, there's a lot more .... Get a canopy coach before doing anything with the rears...He will tell you.

I hope my post makes you get some information about these things...and a canopy coach. This is not the right place to study these things, a canopy course is.

[BMFin 0]

Troll

[dharma1976 0]

my most painful swoop ended with me grabbing the rears and thinking this is going to be the best swooo....splash...skip skip skip skip skip ow my balls...skip skip skip skip oh that was a rib ... skip skip skip not the rock ....phew not the rock....

I generally use the rears on every jump unless:
1. I am not on my line at about 250 ft
2. I am low see 1
3. shits fucked up and I need to save my life see 1 again
4. I am hella uncurrent and don't trust my rears as much

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[superstu 0]

There is a difference between recovery arc and the corner, it's a small difference that gets even smaller as canopy size goes down and wingloading goes up.

Ideally one would want to plane the canopy out with as little input as possible, the more input you have to give to not impact the ground the more you're in the corner. if you're too far in the corner and you try to use rear risers to plane out then you high speed stall which typically translates to femuring or death.

However, what we see a lot of the times is people on stiletto's, sabre2's, katana's, ect; do their turn and get right on to their rear risers because a) the big dogs in the game do it and they want to be like them, and b) because their too low to allow the canopy to recover on it's own.

Really the goal for all the up and coming swoopers is not to land using rear risers to plane out, but to get good enough where you can a) land without having to go to rear risers or toggles to plane out because you've built enough power and have timed your turn/ rollout to basically perfection, and b) have the "on the fly" ability to distinguish when you can use rears, toggles, or nothing.

yes, this takes a long time to develop but taking the necessary progression is better then dieing.

also, i've attached 2 pics as examples. the 1st was me on an impulse 120 (basically a colbalt) wingloading about 1.5 back when i was first learning HP landings. this canopy when flown correctly should plane itself out on its own, but you can see the amount rear riser input i have to give to plane the canopy out, which should basically tell you that i was low.
the 2nd pic is a fairly recent one of me on a VE 96 loaded at about 2.2 at 5000'MSL. granted i'm not comparing the same canopies and wingloadings, but hopefully you can see the difference in rear riser input needed to plane the canopy when done correctly (at least what i consider correct )

hopefully that all made sense, a lot of info on here gets misconstruded because it's hard to write out every little detail involved.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Troll

Not so - I happen to know Shane personally.

That said, I also know Scott Roberts has spent a lot of time with Shane, and that he has access to some of the best pilots in the USA. I'm surprised at the question - I suspect it's a misunderstanding of something that has been explained to him.

Shane, Stu has a good description of it, but I would suggest talking to Scott, face to face, about your question.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

I only use my rears if I need to, I know where the stall point is with my rears. I have many canopy learning jumps, like pulling high and learning about my canopy and getting comfortable under it. I use the natural recover arch 95% of the time as that is what my canopy coaches have taught me, but I was wondering if there was any benefit from it, because one swooper who competed in the cpc told me that he puts himsel in the corner where he has to use his rears because it slingshots him out of the corner. I only have used my rears to correct my turn very little, but once I have gone threw the gates I have been playing with using them to carve or to trim the canopy to climb some.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Having encountered (and once upon a time used) the incorrect terminology you describe I can confidently say that the pilot misrepresented what he was trying to relay.

First, we have to get away from describing using rears to shorten the recovery arc SLIGHTLY as in the corner - it's not the same thing at all.

Shane, what that pilot meant was that, on the particular canopy they flew, that they set themselves up so that some minor input is required to level the wing out. This technique is totally dependent on what you fly. Think about it as intentionally shortening the last part of your recovery arc.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

this pilot said he does it on purpose every jump. Like I said, he said he believes it slingshots him out of the turn. I was saying I use them if I have a bad setup, butte uses them every jump.....I did bot understand his belief behind it, that is why i am asking since I don't know when Scott or kaz will be out.......

[ErwinBDJ 0]

The only thing i want to write is get serious coaching and all the pieces of the puzzle will come togheter.

Erwin Baatenburg de Jong.
Canopyschool Texel.
Skydive Texel.



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[dploi 0]

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I have been told by some swoopers they use their rears on every jump to pull out of the recovery arch. Do you? If you do, why do you do it? Do you see better performance out of it? I jump a katana loaded at 1.7 and dont use rears unless I am a little low. I have several jumps on a velo96 and didnt use rears on that either. Just cause of what people do and why they do it, thanx!

Blue Skies,
Shane

Ideally, you shouldn't *need* rears to plane out. Rear riser input on landing *should* be just enough to angle it in a tad and get some extra airtime. Actually bailing to rears can = .

[piahenzi 0]

Dave - happy to say that I am finally back on mine after my pond incident.... sight picture as to when too low DEFINITELY there :))
Sussex July 18th - b there !!

Shane - be careful!! Not "understanding" rears can really really really be painful... trust me, I know ... good luck!! looking forward to seeing your progress next year

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

thank you and you too! This thread was suppose to be about is there a benefit to using your rears to shorten your recovery on purpose, like you plan to do it before you exit the aircraft, not about using rears to pull someone out of a bad turn/setup

[piahenzi 0]

if you are "looks like I'm gonna hit" (edit) low.... don't use rears.. that's a LAW my friend .... don't ever think otherwise...

[superstu 0]

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This thread was suppose to be about is there a benefit to using your rears to shorten your recovery on purpose, like you plan to do it before you exit the aircraft, not about using rears to pull someone out of a bad turn/setup

that answer can't accurately be explained through a forum like this. too many important details will slip through the cracks and people (not only you) could misunderstand something vital. speak with scott, kaz, mcnenney, when you see them next.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[dharma1976 0]

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Dave - happy to say that I am finally back on mine after my pond incident.... sight picture as to when too low DEFINITELY there :))
Sussex July 18th - b there !!

Shane - be careful!! Not "understanding" rears can really really really be painful... trust me, I know ... good luck!! looking forward to seeing your progress next year

Yay!!!!!

I am stoked to hear that

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

I know and trust me, I will....I was just clearing up what this post was about..... guess you cant make things clear to everyone, oh well. I got the answer I needed and will def. be getting more once I talk to scott and kaz, and mcnenney if he decides to come down. Thanx for all the answers stu

[ficus 0]

I have been told by some swoopers that their canopy needs input in order to plane out (e.g. Xaos 27 @ ~2.2).

My Crossfire 2 will plane out on its own, (the Katana did too in my experience, but that was underloading it at 1.4).

However, if I am just a hair low and I give a very small amount of rear riser input, I do feel that "slingshot" effect and it does seem to really improve my swoop.

I am not talking about bailing to rears, digging out on rears, whatever you want to call it -- just a little tap outward.

[berchtoldaj 0]

Learning to swoop with minimal rear riser or toggle input in order to level out your canopy should be the primary goal when learning to swoop. EVERY canopy that is out there these days recovers on its own. From a Navigator at .8, a Jedei at 1.7, Katana at 2.2 or a Velocity at 2.9 they all have a natural tendacy to recover from a dive. The difference is the pilot underneath the canopy. I need to adjust my turn style, learn how the new canopy generates(and looses) speed, and most importantly at what altitude to begin a speed building manuver.
The canopy doesn't dive forever, you probably just started, or better yet, ended your turn too low.

Underloading- Is a word that should be stricken from peoples vocabulary. A Katana at 1.4 is not underloaded. A Velocity at 1.9 is not underloaded. The canopy will open fly and land just as it was designed. It just may not be as fast as YOU would like. Just as there is no optimal wingloading- There is just personal preference. and it differs from one pilot to the next. Treating an "optimal" wingloading provided to you by one of your friends as gospel isn't going to help you out.

************
Watch out for planters.

[wetswooper 0]

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Learning to swoop with minimal rear riser or toggle input in order to level out your canopy should be the primary goal when learning to swoop. EVERY canopy that is out there these days recovers on its own. From a Navigator at .8, a Jedei at 1.7, Katana at 2.2 or a Velocity at 2.9 they all have a natural tendacy to recover from a dive.

Not exactly that way...
There's a big difference by saying that a canopy recovers or that it levels out.
I've never jumped a canopy or gained so much speed with it (100mph isn't enough with my velo) that it levels out to level flight with no input at all. Maybe the speed of a velocity with a navigator at .8 would do the trick. A very little input (i.e a short tap on rears...or only touching the rears) during the natural recovery will do the work and "throw" the jumper enough forward to let the canopy level out to level flight on its own with no input.

My point here is that every canopy has a natural tendency to recover.....to it's natural full flight, or even a little less steep angle...until it gets back to it's natural full flight when the speed slows down. But none of my canopies has leveled out to level flight even for that short period of time.
It just isn't enough to let the canopy recover...you have to do a little bit more, to make it fly level.

[wetswooper 0]

There's actually an easy way to test if you can gain enough speed to make a canopy recover all the way level flight. All you need is some datalogger

Take your velo (or any canopy) up high and make spiral to it's max speed, then stop the turn and lose all controls.
On the ground you can download the data from some datalogger (neptune or pro track might be accurate enough) and see if you lost altitude or gained it after the dive.

I can't get to any DZ for a couple of weeks but if somebody tests this it would be interesting to see how close we can get.

[davelepka 4]

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This thread was suppose to be about is there a benefit to using your rears to shorten your recovery on purpose, like you plan to do it before you exit the aircraft, not about using rears to pull someone out of a bad turn/setup

As previously stated, on some canopies at some WLs there is a benefit to using some input to squirt yourself out of the bottm of a dive.

The problem with the way you describe it is that when you plan to do things a certain way, you tend to stick with that plan. If you leave the plane thinking that you want to be a hair low, and you're going to 'slingshot' out of the corner with your rears, you set yourself up for trouble.

Your tolerence for being low will go up, meaning that the point at which you realize you're low, or become concerned that you're low will be at a lower altitude than on jumps where you don't plan the 'slingshot'.

The real problem with this is that you've got your hands firmly on the rears, and you have every intention of using them. When a little low turns into too low, and the 'slingshot' turns into needing to dig out, your hands and your brain may still be thinking 'rear risers'.

It's important to understand that what you refer to as the 'stall point' of your rear risers is actually the angle of attack of your canopy. At different speeds and in different flight modes (such as diving as opposed to level flight) your canopy will reach the critical angle of attack at a different rate. What you're used to in terms of stalling your rears at the end of a swoop is completely different than the stall behavior you should expect when in a high-speed, high-G manuver like pulling out of dive.

In terms of 'planning to do this every jump before you leave the plane', that should never be your thought process when swooping. The things you do every jump are fly a good pattern, be overly cautious in terms of traffic management, and try to be consistant with where you start your turn. Beyond that, each swoop will be different, and require a different response from the pilot.

Once you roll into your turn you begin to evaluate the quality of your set-up, the rate of your turn, the rate of altitude loss, your accuracy in terms of the gates (if there are any), and you adjust as needed for all these factors. This will also have an effect on how you fly the bottom end of your swoop, be it rears, or rears to 'slingshot', or straight toggles, or even a bail out on toggles (never on rears). The bottom line is that if you mentally lock yourself into one idea before you leave the plane, you really back yourself into a corner (no pun intended) before you enter the dynamic enviornment of swooping (or skydiving in general for that matter).

[NexGenSkydiver 0]

from all my experience I have found that my rears will stall my canopy when pulled a certian distance no matter how fast or slow I am going......not that it changes with speed as you say. I have never exited the plane planning to use rears to slingshot myself because I don't understand it and my canopy recovers on its own so I don't need that slingshot.... I can hit gates, on normal weekends I hit 5ft gates every jump except maybe one or two for the whole weekend.....I thank me being able to hit gates on the fact that I train on gates closer then comp. gates and that they are only 5ft gates......I have found out what I needed from stu as far as my question goes......I don't like some of the comments that have been made please don't judge me until you have seen me fly and if you come to palatka I wouldnt mind jumping with you

[obadz 0]

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My point here is that every canopy has a natural tendency to recover.....to it's natural full flight, or even a little less steep angle...until it gets back to it's natural full flight when the speed slows down. But none of my canopies has leveled out to level flight even for that short period of time.

I've had canopies level out after a turn with no input or even climb a bit.. I have to say I found the latter most annoying.

[AggieDave 6]

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they use their rears on every jump to pull out of the recovery arch

I haven't used a recovery arch since I was a student skydiver and found myself unable to return belly to earth. I'm not sure what "rears" you would use besides pushing your rear and pelvis forward to a nice big arch to get you stable on your belly again.

For flying my canopy and the recovery ARC then using a *little* rears to come around the corner isn't a bad thing depending on what canopy you're using. Basically with that Katana, if you would have had to pull your toggles past your ears to come out of the dive, then you should not use the rears. If not then at some point you're going to dig on your rears, let it fly when you've pulled too long and the canopy starts to turtle on you, then you'll pull on the rears again and have a violent rear riser stall where you crash on your back nice and hard.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."