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crashtested

Zzzzzz .... max loading on PDF canopy and reserve?

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Forget about the wingloading aspect for me personally, i weigh with gear around 270 lbs ish sometimes lower, but i have ordered a 150 as a reserve with a 170 main..... due to various reasons.

Forget about my jump numbers and tell me if this is dangerous because of blow outs on my reserve if opening at high speed... I am a little confused about how you swooping boys can max out a canopy with a wl of 2.3 or somthing and it won't just rip apart.. despite this being way above manufacutres recomendations....

Are the recomendations there due to the worry of comming in to fast or because of your canopy ripping apart??

If i have a 150 at my weight do i need a different reserve other than a techno?? for blow out reasons alone?

Thanks for your help

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Reserves (and most other canopies) often have 2 "max" weights listed, and that can be confusing.

One is the max certified weight, and that is related to tested maximums for deployment limits.

The other is max recommended weight and that is simply what the manufacturer thinks (or wishes to admit to) is a good idea for performance and safety.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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What JP didn't mention was the numbers for the certifications. Here in the States (other countries usualy are copies of the US certification requirements of very similar) the reserves are usually certified under a TSO that requires 254 lbs at 150 knot deployments and landings under a certian speed. To get the certification they need to actually test slightly higher and faster then that with out destructing but the final canopy is only certified to the 254 lb limit unless it is a large canopy. The issue is that the harness is usually rated at the 254 lbs also unless it is one of the few that is certified to 300 lbs.

That being said manufactors also tend to put recommendations on a canopy that indicate its acceptible performance level, above that and you are in situations where the canopy might land too fast for the certification or might have undesired tendencies. For example some of the Micro-Raven's get twitchy when loaded up a lot and have been known to stall out on landing and drop the person on their back (breaking at least 1 I know of in the last 3-4 years). Reserves loaded up a lot also fly and land a bit different then mains and as such a lot of people have issues landing them because of the changes.

And yes, different canopies hold up differently when they are pushed over their limits. Review the fatality database at skydivingfatalities.info and you will see some reserves blew apart when pushed beyond their limits when they deployed accidently freeflying and in other situations. Changes to some of the newer designs reflect the lessons learned in these fatalities.

I'd personally upsize the reserve to a reasonable level, something like a 210 rather then the 150 you ordered at the weights you listed.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Yeahh i know i was in for a bit of bashing i'll wait an see if i get some constructive advice about what i have comming to me!!!!!

I have some imput from those around me, but it's always worth getting some DZ advice about it all as well, if a lot of you guys said somthing on the lines as it will kill you no doubt then i would either stop eating burgers or chose somthing else canopy wise in the 150 mark....

I have a good plan with experiance b4 recieving the canopy, and as some of you know i have a different thought process about skydiving than some of you.. but as i said i just really want to concentrate on wing loading Vs safety from a blow out point of view or a .. you know what crash if your freeflying and your reserve pops, its going to blow up and you'll be fucked!!!!

Remember.. i'm a skygod!!!!

When i say god i mean.. jesus type of guy

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Jp & phreeone, thanks for the info on this, I apriciate both the advice on the reserves and the techincal info on it all, i've done a search on blow outs on reserves, and i guess a lot of it comes down to the maintaining of your equipemnet and pre drop checks that you take.. esp when free flying..

any more advice would be aprriciated espes from those anvil guys who are maxing out there weight and expericnaces on higher wl on there reserves than mains, an how this has effected there choices

thanks again

pn
diablo, if you could always help out with advice like you have given... i may even buy you a beer one day... v much apriciated :)

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You're fortunate that people like JP and Phree are willing to be not only informative but somewhat tactful. My approach tends to be a little more abrasive. It helps to be thick-skinned (not to be confused with just plain thick) if you're going to post questions like that. Highly loaded reserves are more likely to come apart especially during high-speed deployments, Those deployments could be accidental (as in your handle gets pulled by your freefly buddy) or intentional (like when you break off head down at 1500 feet). In any case when you find yourself under that small reserve I hope it works out OK for you, planning for that event on every jump will serve you well.
Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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Martini??

Is that mark??

You know my name .. so i'm guessing you know me a little at least?

MOre informative q then anything else.... i'm curous about speed and wingloading as you are well aware that i will do what i think is good for me / bad in others eyes... now if you came back to me and said that it's fucked up to come in on a 1.8 wl regarless of jump no's than i would step back a littlle and upsize on my R due to this that or the other,... and realvltuiate my reserve choice....

Thats my q on this, you know i look at risk and work my opinion out on it all... which is why i'm a badasss and your not...... my q is will a reserve work( The reserve that i'm getting) in high speed and at my wl, or not...

Thats my only q>>> chances / risk invoved

thanks again........

Martini your lovley xx -

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Thats my only q>>> chances / risk invoved



It's interesting that you say that, but are focusing only on the chances of it blowing up and don't want people to mention the extra risk of being under a working reserve loaded that high.

You said that there were reasons why you wanted a 150 reserve - what are they?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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For some reason you think that being a bigger guy means that you have to load your canopies up, and that is just wrong. You also seem to think that talking to people, and reading about things will help you, which is also wrong.

You want to know what helps? Training, experience, currency, and hard work. There are no replacements. All of the people you claim support the choices you make are not the ones who have to jump the canopies they are reccomending.

Your weight may have you pushing the TSO on your gear, but youare still free to select an appropriate wingloading for your experience. In truth you could even stick to gear TSO'd for 300 lbs, and actually be smart, but that seems like it's asking for alot.

Seeing how open canopy incidents are the number one cause of injury or death in skydiving, I don't know what could possibly make you think that the choices you're making are OK, but they're not.

I'll be the second Dave in this thread to add that I don't even load my reserve at 1.8, and I have twice as many jumps as the other Dave, who have ten times as many jumps as you do.

We all know skydiving is dangerous. Some of the guys who have been around longer also know that if you follow the mainstream 'rules', some very stupid people have been able to enjoy years of trouble free jumping.

If you venture too far outside of the 'norm' some of the brightest and most gifted newer have jumpers have been forced into early retirement.

Your plans are clearly outside of the norm. Far outside.

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If you venture too far outside of the 'norm' some of the brightest and most gifted newer have jumpers have been forced into early retirement.

Your plans are clearly outside of the norm. Far outside.



Well spoken.

To the OP, plenty of jumpers here have posted good explanations on a technical and personal front so I won't repeat them. I will say, though, that your gear choices are poor to say the least. I strongly advise you reconsider. There is no reason, whatsoever, for you to intentionally load a reserve that high.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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The problem i have is pdf can only put out a 150 reserve for my 170 main (rather than a 170 or a 190 reserve Which would have been my prefered choice) why this is i don't know, so i have made the choice.. be it a bad one or not...

So i am going to get back in training again and lower my weight down to 215, and put a lot of time into canopy control on a smaller canopy.

Thanks again for all the informed advice

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As far as I'm concerned you are welcome to load your reserve as heavily as you want. What I'm critical of is your clear lack of understanding of the possible consequences of your decision. BTW the chances of having a reserve ride may increase with a more highly loaded main.

There are manufacturers that will build a rig with a reserve sized larger than the main, they will also get it to you in less than a year. Checking that out should have been part of your gear buying process.

Will your reseve work in a high-speed deployment? Maybe, you know there are no guarantees. Will you land it safely? I wouldn't bet on it. I don't make bets with obviously poor odds.
Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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The problem i have is pdf can only put out a 150 reserve for my 170 main (rather than a 170 or a 190 reserve



Then don't get the atom 0 get one size bigger! In fact a 170 main also sounds fairly suicidal to me at your weight and jumpnumber :S

That aside, I'd really really re-think ordering from PdF at the moment as they're having major problems delivering - upside, you'll get your rig next season (hopefully) when you should have plenty more jumps (still a bad choice in both main and reserve IMO though).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Wow, it seriously sounds like you need a 'jerk' in your dropzone life. I was told I would die when I started with a Sabre 2 170 and I weighed 210 out the door. Holy Sh*T you're way more than I weighed then. 500 some jumps later, I jump a little smaller canopy and still have hundreds of jumps on my main and almost a dozen on my current reserve through demo jumps. I load my PR126 pretty high (1.67), especially for somebody with a little over 500 jumps. But, the fact that I've flown my reserve as a main for many jumps, in many wind factors and scenarios makes me a better canopy pilot on my reserve and main. You seriously make a fundamental flaw: You decide what to buy on a little guidance and how much you can afford. I always say demo what you want, then pick what you feel is best for you. I can tell from reading already that the container you choose is not the best for you. I assume you will blow this off and think of me as some tool or bitch since I don't agree with you, but, I have been around a lot of injury or death in my limited time in the sport and I simply am hoping to persuade more needless injury. I am 100% sure that 99.99999999% of the people that read this will agree with me: Pull your head out of your fu*king a*s and listen to the 'losers' that don't want to watch you die. Seriously. It's no problem to jump a canopy a little smaller first, then go smaller after a few hundred jumps on that canopy. It's the safest way.

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I still have a 5 month wait for the rig to get here, my jump numbers, english weather being what it is should be up to the 400 mark by that point... maybe a few more if i can squeeze in the trip to deland again....

Thanks again for all the advice, i'll have another chat with the girls and boys at the dz, and get there take on things.

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The problem i have is pdf can only put out a 150 reserve for my 170 main (rather than a 170 or a 190 reserve Which would have been my prefered choice) why this is i don't know, so i have made the choice.. be it a bad one or not...


That's not unusual for many containers, and is to do with the shape and pack volume? Ever considered a PD Optima? Then you could have a 190-ish sized reserve.

BTW - Sorry, but you're absolute level of experience (and likely levels of currency - you sound like you go on trips, do a lot for a short time and then leave gaps) make a 1.6 lbs/sq ft loaded main a less desirable option, let alone the reserve choice. Incidentally, one generally lands reserves: (a) in high stress situations, (b) almost never where they expected to land when they got out the aircraft.
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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When you were making that choice, did you think about how you would handle an unknown canopy, SMALLER then your main, that you've NEVER jumped before and loaded @ 1.8 with less then 200 jumps total in a very stressful situation, which your first cutaway will most definitely be? Add to that possible off DZ landing?

I am not sure what you were thinking, but I have always been curious what motivates newer jumpers to buy a system with a considerably smaller reserve than their main. Can you help me out?

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Hello,
+1 And just for fun ,it is really really a pain to find spare parts for my tandem !! ( 7 months for a drogue by example and I am not the only one !) . Even they designed great products , their lack of products support is very stressing !
BS
Chris
PS :Sam , IN DOUBT GO BIG !

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>Forget about my jump numbers and tell me if this is dangerous
>because of blow outs on my reserve if opening at high speed . . .

To answer the question quickly - yes.

Stress on a canopy goes up fairly linearly with weight, but geometrically with speed. And heavy guys tend to fall faster - _especially_ when they need to use their reserve (i.e. have a total and are going head down looking for their handles.)

To answer it on a more general level -

The odds of you being injured by your reserve blowing up are small compared to your odds of being injured or killed on landing by jumping an absurdly high loading for your experience level.

>I am a little confused about how you swooping boys can max out a
>canopy with a wl of 2.3 or somthing and it won't just rip apart . . .

1) Many do not take it to terminal and this _greatly_ reduces the loads on canopies.

2) When a canopy is made smaller, generally the canopy uses the same number of lines, same number of cells etc. Nothing structural is removed from the canopy, so the forces during opening don't increase. (Assuming same suspended weight and deployment speed.)

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