ChaseBradshaw 0 #26 July 14, 2008 How about getting a demo of the reserve and jump it as a main. See if you can make 10 standup landings inside of a 10 meter circle. Then judge for your self. Then in the case you find yourself under it (as a reserve), you would at least be more comforable landing it. (Chances are you wont be laning at the DZ) Please play with the canopy up high so you limit you injuy on landing. F111 at 1.8WL is not a choice I would make for myself. P.S. Canopies loaded at 2.3WL are X-braced ZeroP take a read through NZaeo's web site, lots of information there: http://www.nzaerosports.com/choosingacanopy.htm Info on Xbracing: http://www.nzaerosports.com/FX.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #27 July 14, 2008 QuoteI am a little confused about how you swooping boys can max out a canopy with a wl of 2.3 or somthing and it won't just rip apart.. A main canopy is desinged and built to open slow. Have you seen the size of the slider on an x-braced canopy? They're huge. A reserve is desinged to open in 300 ft or less. The slider is F-111, and has a huge hole cut in it. How little you seem to know is amazing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #28 July 14, 2008 QuoteI still have a 5 month wait for the rig to get here, my jump numbers, english weather being what it is should be up to the 400 mark by that point... maybe a few more if i can squeeze in the trip to deland again.... At which point a 190 would be the minimum size considered prudent assuming you were current and learned a lot over the last 100 jumps on a 210. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #29 July 14, 2008 Off-topic (but still regarding opening shock): Does canopy size really matter when it comes to opening shock? Assuming a heavy guy (a.k.a. fatso) falling at 150mph, can PDR99 blow on opening while PD253 be OK?Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #30 July 14, 2008 >Does canopy size really matter when it comes to opening shock? Yes and no. No, a smaller canopy isn't any 'weaker' than a larger canopy, all things being equal. However (and this is a biggie) not everything is equal, notably reefing. If you scale everything exactly from a PDR99 to a PDR253, opening time is not the same for many reasons - how long it takes the canopy to reach the end of the lines, the forces on the slider, the geometry of the risers vs the slider (canopy is wider but harness isn't) will all be different. Often, smaller canopies that aren't corrected for scaling effects tend to open much harder than larger canopies of the same design. Good canopy designers will take this into account in the design. One notable example were the additional brake lines on the early Sabres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #31 July 14, 2008 Quote MOre informative q then anything else.... i'm curous about speed and wingloading as you are well aware that i will do what i think is good for me / bad in others eyes... now if you came back to me and said that it's fucked up to come in on a 1.8 wl regarless of jump no's than i would step back a littlle and upsize on my R due to this that or the other,... and realvltuiate my reserve choice.... Yeah, square canopies are tricky to land at high wingloadings and often won't stop like tapered designs do. I have 1500 jumps, a Samurai 105 main loaded aourd 1.9 pounds/square foot, and a PD143R loaded under 1.4 pounds/suqare foot. You may also be landing the reserve with broken bones and/or dislocated joints that make it hard to run and/or flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #32 July 14, 2008 QuoteA reserve is desinged to open in 300 ft or less. The slider is F-111, and has a huge hole cut in it. Oh really, I've never seen a reserve unpacked. If you were to jump a reserve as a main would you change the slider or just deploy sub terminal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseBradshaw 0 #33 July 15, 2008 Quote You may also be landing the reserve with broken bones and/or dislocated joints that make it hard to run and/or flare. You may even be unconcious and not flare at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #34 July 15, 2008 I still have a 5 month wait for the rig to get here, my jump numbers, english weather being what it is should be up to the 400 mark by that point... maybe a few more if i can squeeze in the trip to deland again.... Quote Well then that makes all the difference. By that time you might even find that you need an even smaller reserve. Seriously, you have time to change your mind, your rig isn't started yet. Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #35 July 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteA reserve is desinged to open in 300 ft or less. The slider is F-111, and has a huge hole cut in it. Oh really, I've never seen a reserve unpacked. If you were to jump a reserve as a main would you change the slider or just deploy sub terminal? Just suck it up. Good reserve designs (PDR) aren't appreciably worse than the the Sabre and Monarch squares we used to jump. If it's going to ring your bell you want to find out at 2700 feet instead of 700. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #36 July 15, 2008 QuoteI am a little confused about how you swooping boys can max out a canopy with a wl of 2.3 or somthing and it won't just rip apart.. A main canopy is desinged and built to open slow. Have you seen the size of the slider on an x-braced canopy? They're huge. No i have not seen one, i have not been under one, are you sugesting i down size further? or that i start spending more time in rigging rooms? or what? i'm missing your point A reserve is desinged to open in 300 ft or less. The slider is F-111, and has a huge hole cut in it. I know about the hole, but did not think that the slider was the only reason for it opening so quickly, I was under the imprssion that it was due to the pack job, and the spring loaded pilot chute!! in todays age though, it opens quicker due to a rsl or skyhook. but that is todays gear not gear 14 years ago. when you were still jumping rounds.. :) for which btw i salute you, the only round i'd jump is off a bridge over water.... How little you seem to know is amazing. I am amazing, thanks :P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #37 July 15, 2008 Quote No i have not seen one, i have not been under one, are you sugesting i down size further? If you read it as a suggestion to downsize, you have serious comprehension issues. That may be dangerous - next thing you know you might think that we are all suggesting that you go through with your choice. Quote or that i start spending more time in rigging rooms? Is that REALLY such a bad idea? Quote i'm missing your point I have to agree with that statement, you most certainly are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #38 July 15, 2008 Quoteare you sugesting i down size further? or that i start spending more time in rigging rooms? or what? i'm missing your point You really are missing the point. You're also furthering my point that you don't know what you're talking about. QuoteI know about the hole, but did not think that the slider was the only reason for it opening so quickly, I was under the imprssion that it was due to the pack job, and the spring loaded pilot chute!! in todays age though, it opens quicker due to a rsl or skyhook. The pack job and the slider are what will effect the opening speeds, more so the slider. The pilot chute (be it spring loaded or hand deployed), an RSL, or a Skyhook have nothing to do with the spped the canopy opens. They are all related to the speed that the canopy is deployed in to the relative wind. Spring loading a pilot chute has nothing to do with the speed it will exctrat a bag. That's the size of the pilot chute that controls that. The overall point here is for you to realize that you really don't know what you're talking about, and your ignorance extends into the area of canopy selection. Whatever logic you used to make your choices is severely flawed. Quotebut that is todays gear not gear 14 years ago. when you were still jumping rounds.. :) for which btw i salute you, the only round i'd jump is off a bridge over water.... For the record, I've never jumped a round, and my first canopy was a Sabre. Yup, square and z-po. If you're trying to make the assertion that because I strated jumping 14 years ago that my knowledge of gear is limited the gear available 14 years ago, that's another mistake on your part. 14 Years ago my knowledge of gear was very limited, much like yours is today. Gaining knowledge of equipment and how to use it is a long term process, one which I am suggesting that you have only just begun. While I do have years of prior knowledge to build on, I continue to apply one of the ealry lessons I was tuaght in terms of gear and rigging which is that the learning never stops. You never know as much as you think, and on top of that there are always new developments. Continuing education in this area is key to being informed and up to date, so yes, I do know about things like RSL's and Skyhooks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #39 July 15, 2008 >or that i start spending more time in rigging rooms? Definitely. >I know about the hole, but did not think that the slider was the only >reason for it opening so quickly, It's not. It is, however, the primary reefing device, and thus has a very large effect overall. >I was under the imprssion that it was due to the pack job, and the spring >loaded pilot chute!! Not really and no. The pilot chute has little to do with it, and the pack job, while it encourages a faster opening, will not by itself make a canopy open fast. >in todays age though, it opens quicker due to a rsl or skyhook. Guy, you have GOT to get some education on gear. What you don't know _can_ hurt you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #40 July 15, 2008 Quote I am not sure what you were thinking, but I have always been curious what motivates newer jumpers to buy a system with a considerably smaller reserve than their main. Can you help me out? Quote I'll give you my reasons and take from it what u will. I Intend to be in this sport for the next 10 maybe 12 years, so i looked at a rig which i could use for all of that time, not one i may have to change every couple of years or every 500 jumps. so to awnser your first question it comes down to.... Money, kit knowledge, downsizability, and looking cool. The canopy is actually a 155 (my bad) so 15 ft smaller than my first choice of reserve canopy size, (pending on currency) bearing in mind i have been flying a 170 in the right conditions What i find funny is some peoples out there use the same size canopy regardless of conditions and currency, myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? why is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #41 July 15, 2008 I'm very confused, are you saying a skyhook will not increase the speed the canopy will deploy and open? Time to speak to a rigger in more detail i think, thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflyn 0 #42 July 15, 2008 That is awesome!!! Money is actually a concern!! Thanks dude, you brightened my day, continue trolling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,384 #43 July 15, 2008 >are you saying a skyhook will not increase the speed the canopy >will deploy and open? Neither a Skyhook nor an RSL will increase the speed of your reserve opening if you pull the handle in freefall, or if you cutaway and open your reserve after a total or a PC in tow. In addition, an RSL just pulls your reserve handle for you; it does not decrease the time between reserve pull and canopy deployment, although it can make the overall procedure faster. The reason they are used is: 1) Both the RSL and Skyhook (which is a modified RSL) serve as a backup to pulling the reserve handle. This backup would, for example, have saved a jumper at Elsinore a few weeks ago who did not pull his reserve handle after he cut away. 2) The Skyhook will open your reserve more quickly if: - you cut away from a partially deployed main - the partially deployed main is generating a lot of drag (a bag lock may not be enough to speed it up much) - your RSL is connected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,384 #44 July 15, 2008 >myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than >downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. >I have never seen anyone else do that??? They may have canopies that they do not need to upsize in order to land safely under their normal skydiving regime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #45 July 15, 2008 QuoteI Intend to be in this sport for the next 10 maybe 12 years, so i looked at a rig which i could use for all of that time, not one i may have to change every couple of years or every 500 jumps. That's not the way it works. Buy what you can safely jump today - at your current weight and skill level. When you have significantly changed one of the two, then you look for different gear. Quoteit comes down to.... Money, kit knowledge, downsizability, and looking cool Money should not be a factor. Establish a budget, and find what would be safe that you can afford. In terms of future planning, if you make smart purchases, and take care of your gear, you can sell you old gear and replace it with newer/smaller/faster without too much pentaly. You may even find a great deal on a newer/smaller/faster rig and be able to downsize with no cash out of pocket. Kit knowledge - we've already established that you are lacking in this area. This is not something that buying the wrong rig will help. Looking cool - for who? Anyone who knows the difference between a rig with a 150/150 or a 170/190 is going to be an experinced jumper. The only way you look cool to them is through your performance, not that of your gear. I know a few older, highly experinced jumper who jump 150s or 170s whcih they land straight in. Just by watching their approach and landing, there is no question that they are skilled canopy pilots, and in complete control of the situation. Jumping gear that is not properly sized for you will show in your performance. Everytime the canopy gets the better of you, people will see, and they will know that you are not cool. All of this is leaving out the very real possibility that you may end up injured or killed, neither of which is cool. Quotemyself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? This is not the best idea. You should be jumping gear that you are able to handle in the worst scenario possible, not just when you're feeling fresh and on top of your game. Things can happen in freefall that will have you far off of your game, but you've already chosen your rig for that jump, and now you have to land it. This is all not to mention the additional risks you take renting gear. Did you pack the rental? Are you sure the rental has been properly cared for? Do you know the jumper who previously jumped the rental? You stand a much better chance of avoiding problems if you own, pack, care for, and oversee the maintainence on your own rig. I have follwed this plan, and have zero cutaways in 5000 jumps. All of that leaves out the dammage to your learning that switching from one canopy to the next will do. Wind and temp will change from day to day, and challenge your learning on your canopy. If you add to that different canopies, than you further hamper your efforts. Find a reasonable wing, and stick with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frost 1 #46 July 15, 2008 Quoteso i looked at a rig which i could use for all of that time, not one i may have to change every couple of years or every 500 jumps. Have you EVER heard of any newer jumper that stayed with the same rig for more then a couple of years? QuoteMoney, kit knowledge, downsizability, and looking cool. you're not gonna look very cool when you beef it in on one of your canopies loaded WAY beyond your experience level. Quote I Intend to be in this sport for the next 10 maybe 12 years 185 jumps, main loaded at ~1.6, reserve loaded @ over 1.7... sounds like a pretty bad way to go about ensuring your longevity in this sport. QuoteWhat i find funny is some peoples out there use the same size canopy regardless of conditions and currency, myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? why is that? I think you have gotten more then enough good sound advice from some very experienced people here. Take it if you want, listen to it or dont - that's your choice. I dont think there is anything more to add here. P.S. This kind conversation seems to repeat itself every other month on these forums. Good luck to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chri 0 #47 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote What i find funny is some peoples out there use the same size canopy regardless of conditions and currency, myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? why is that? Oh! You will hire bigger rigs, because plenty dropzones won´t let you jump your new cool rig! Thats money that you could save for a gear change years later! Good luck not to hurt yourself with that poor decision! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Martini 0 #48 July 16, 2008 This really has been a very good troll but I'm bored with it now. Good luck to you if you're serious. Try not to hurt someone else.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #49 July 16, 2008 I think this thread has run it's course.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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crashtested 0 #41 July 15, 2008 I'm very confused, are you saying a skyhook will not increase the speed the canopy will deploy and open? Time to speak to a rigger in more detail i think, thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyn 0 #42 July 15, 2008 That is awesome!!! Money is actually a concern!! Thanks dude, you brightened my day, continue trolling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #43 July 15, 2008 >are you saying a skyhook will not increase the speed the canopy >will deploy and open? Neither a Skyhook nor an RSL will increase the speed of your reserve opening if you pull the handle in freefall, or if you cutaway and open your reserve after a total or a PC in tow. In addition, an RSL just pulls your reserve handle for you; it does not decrease the time between reserve pull and canopy deployment, although it can make the overall procedure faster. The reason they are used is: 1) Both the RSL and Skyhook (which is a modified RSL) serve as a backup to pulling the reserve handle. This backup would, for example, have saved a jumper at Elsinore a few weeks ago who did not pull his reserve handle after he cut away. 2) The Skyhook will open your reserve more quickly if: - you cut away from a partially deployed main - the partially deployed main is generating a lot of drag (a bag lock may not be enough to speed it up much) - your RSL is connected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #44 July 15, 2008 >myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than >downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. >I have never seen anyone else do that??? They may have canopies that they do not need to upsize in order to land safely under their normal skydiving regime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #45 July 15, 2008 QuoteI Intend to be in this sport for the next 10 maybe 12 years, so i looked at a rig which i could use for all of that time, not one i may have to change every couple of years or every 500 jumps. That's not the way it works. Buy what you can safely jump today - at your current weight and skill level. When you have significantly changed one of the two, then you look for different gear. Quoteit comes down to.... Money, kit knowledge, downsizability, and looking cool Money should not be a factor. Establish a budget, and find what would be safe that you can afford. In terms of future planning, if you make smart purchases, and take care of your gear, you can sell you old gear and replace it with newer/smaller/faster without too much pentaly. You may even find a great deal on a newer/smaller/faster rig and be able to downsize with no cash out of pocket. Kit knowledge - we've already established that you are lacking in this area. This is not something that buying the wrong rig will help. Looking cool - for who? Anyone who knows the difference between a rig with a 150/150 or a 170/190 is going to be an experinced jumper. The only way you look cool to them is through your performance, not that of your gear. I know a few older, highly experinced jumper who jump 150s or 170s whcih they land straight in. Just by watching their approach and landing, there is no question that they are skilled canopy pilots, and in complete control of the situation. Jumping gear that is not properly sized for you will show in your performance. Everytime the canopy gets the better of you, people will see, and they will know that you are not cool. All of this is leaving out the very real possibility that you may end up injured or killed, neither of which is cool. Quotemyself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? This is not the best idea. You should be jumping gear that you are able to handle in the worst scenario possible, not just when you're feeling fresh and on top of your game. Things can happen in freefall that will have you far off of your game, but you've already chosen your rig for that jump, and now you have to land it. This is all not to mention the additional risks you take renting gear. Did you pack the rental? Are you sure the rental has been properly cared for? Do you know the jumper who previously jumped the rental? You stand a much better chance of avoiding problems if you own, pack, care for, and oversee the maintainence on your own rig. I have follwed this plan, and have zero cutaways in 5000 jumps. All of that leaves out the dammage to your learning that switching from one canopy to the next will do. Wind and temp will change from day to day, and challenge your learning on your canopy. If you add to that different canopies, than you further hamper your efforts. Find a reasonable wing, and stick with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #46 July 15, 2008 Quoteso i looked at a rig which i could use for all of that time, not one i may have to change every couple of years or every 500 jumps. Have you EVER heard of any newer jumper that stayed with the same rig for more then a couple of years? QuoteMoney, kit knowledge, downsizability, and looking cool. you're not gonna look very cool when you beef it in on one of your canopies loaded WAY beyond your experience level. Quote I Intend to be in this sport for the next 10 maybe 12 years 185 jumps, main loaded at ~1.6, reserve loaded @ over 1.7... sounds like a pretty bad way to go about ensuring your longevity in this sport. QuoteWhat i find funny is some peoples out there use the same size canopy regardless of conditions and currency, myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? why is that? I think you have gotten more then enough good sound advice from some very experienced people here. Take it if you want, listen to it or dont - that's your choice. I dont think there is anything more to add here. P.S. This kind conversation seems to repeat itself every other month on these forums. Good luck to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chri 0 #47 July 15, 2008 Quote Quote What i find funny is some peoples out there use the same size canopy regardless of conditions and currency, myself i will hire a bigger rig for a jump if i'm uncurrent and than downsize throughout the day, if i'm nailing my landings. I have never seen anyone else do that??? why is that? Oh! You will hire bigger rigs, because plenty dropzones won´t let you jump your new cool rig! Thats money that you could save for a gear change years later! Good luck not to hurt yourself with that poor decision! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #48 July 16, 2008 This really has been a very good troll but I'm bored with it now. Good luck to you if you're serious. Try not to hurt someone else.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #49 July 16, 2008 I think this thread has run it's course.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
