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CrazyL

Canopy Pilots: What is your procedure right after main deployment?

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You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

First, my response was to Pilot who suggests there are no logical reasons for doing things in the order we do them - I have presented a case otherwise. That doesn't make him 'wrong' and me 'right' - just just debunks the idea that there's only one way or reason for doing things. In fact, if you look back on my posts you'll see that I encorporated some things into my process based on some good points people who release their brakes first brought up.

So, I'm not saying that loosening your cheststrap after you release the toggles is wrong, I AM saying that as canopies get smaller this becomes less practical and it's not a catch all solution (which is what people want after a fatality).

The best practice is whatever you feel you can do, as safely as you feel you can do it. You HAVE to understand that there is no magical solution - everything you do has pro's and cons.

There's a difference.

Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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>Even a Triathlon160 flies better with chest strap loosen.

I'm sure even a Navigator 280 flies better with the chest strap loosened - but the question is, is the increase in performance worth it? It will be up to each jumper. As we have seen, there is a risk in loosening your chest strap before releasing your toggles.

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There is a very small percentage of skydivers, or canopy pilots, that need the type of performance advantage of loosening the chest strap.


Even a Triathlon160 flies better with chest strap loosen.



Someone who flies a Triathlon 160 can also loosen the chest strap after the toggles are unstowed rather easily.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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Your ways are working for you. Releasing the brakes within 15 seconds of collapsing and positioning your slider sounds great prior to loosening the chest strap. The part about seeing and doing in air detailed inspection of your brake line prior to unstowing the brakes sounds a bit excessive. Sure, I 'see' my toggles and excess brake line, but i'm not going to be able to see the line looped around the guide ring between the guide ring and riser. I'd be looking for traffic and my position with the dz and wind while your still checking out your excess brake line. The root of the problem was the steering problem and yes i'd like for that to be addressed as well. Feel free to start another thread or poll and help us out. This poll has mostly to do with ' Canopy Pilots: What is your procedure right after main deployment'. I felt that i'm already prepared for a steering problem on main or reserve. I needed answers from the Elsinore fatality to make me realize the hazard in flying with a wide open chest strap. Now I have answers, now i'm better prepared to survive such a circumstance. I like some of what you do and will be adopting some of your ways, and I will be paying attention when I rig on my gear and the others gear, you betcha. Blue Ones.

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To answer the poll I have to vote #1. I stow my slider, loosen chest strap, release brakes. That is overly simplified. First upon opening I clear my airspace, harness turn toward the landing area and clap for the tandem video I most likely just shot and turn off my camera. All the while determining that I have time to complete all this stuff.

After the chest strap and before the brakes I also unclip my wings and slip off my booties.

Once I unstow my toggles I will likely be in some degree of brakes until I am flying my landing pattern. (Velocities don't glide very flat in full flight.)

I feel this poll to be unashamedly faulting a loose chest strap alone for a very tragic incident. The skydiver seems to have been very competent and qualified so I doubt any one thing is to blame.

As a jumper who almost always flies large camera wings, I would suspect interference between the wing and handle to be much more of a contributor here. My chest strap is often pretty loose from the start and many RW jumpers still leave them loose to make it easier to arch.

Is there anyone here who cannot see their handles once the chestlstrap is loose? I can tell you first hand that as soon as you lower your elbows the wing material is flapping in the breeze. If you are more or less on your back then it covers your handles and must be swept out of the way before you can grab your handles and it can be tough to grab one without a handfull of the other.

As we strive to learn from the past we have to avoid narrowing down the details and blocking out distractions and interferences you may need to deal with. This is a high speed activity we have chosen boys and girls. Good luck to each of us in dealing with an inevitable array of circumstances.

Flame 'em if you got 'em,
Robin
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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To answer the poll I have to vote #1. I stow my slider, loosen chest strap, release brakes. That is overly simplified. First upon opening I clear my airspace, harness turn toward the landing area and clap for the tandem video I most likely just shot and turn off my camera. All the while determining that I have time to complete all this stuff.

After the chest strap and before the brakes I also unclip my wings and slip off my booties.

Once I unstow my toggles I will likely be in some degree of brakes until I am flying my landing pattern. (Velocities don't glide very flat in full flight.)

I feel this poll to be unashamedly faulting a loose chest strap alone for a very tragic incident. The skydiver seems to have been very competent and qualified so I doubt any one thing is to blame.

As a jumper who almost always flies large camera wings, I would suspect interference between the wing and handle to be much more of a contributor here. My chest strap is often pretty loose from the start and many RW jumpers still leave them loose to make it easier to arch.

Is there anyone here who cannot see their handles once the chestlstrap is loose? I can tell you first hand that as soon as you lower your elbows the wing material is flapping in the breeze. If you are more or less on your back then it covers your handles and must be swept out of the way before you can grab your handles and it can be tough to grab one without a handfull of the other.

As we strive to learn from the past we have to avoid narrowing down the details and blocking out distractions and interferences you may need to deal with. This is a high speed activity we have chosen boys and girls. Good luck to each of us in dealing with an inevitable array of circumstances.

Flame 'em if you got 'em,
Robin

Sorry you feel so horrible about the poll I created. My intentions are to learn even more about 'how to survive' the wicked circumstances us skydivers can get ourselves into. To share. The unclipped wing could have easily been a factor in getting the reserve handle pulled in time. Feel free to help others learn about the pros and cons of camera wings, velcro, ep's canopy flight, premature brake release,etc.. I urge you to for learning sake. I don't have extra time right now to do that. Can you tell me if in the latest SIM manual it mentions anything about the procedures after main deployment? Does it state in the SIM to release brakes after loosening the chest strap? Sorry I do not have a current SIM. I question the procedure that is very common these days #1, . Seems to be the new school way . Old school way , the harness would be snug till after landing. I urge you to test you and your equipment on the ground for having to cutaway and pull reserve while having a loosened chest strap, swooper style. Here's how: Gear up fully. camera suit, cameras, and all gadgets too. Tighten all straps. Empty main container. Loosen chest strap fully as far as you do when you jump. Pull the shoulder harness down to your elbows then figure out how to get to and pull the handles with each hand having to reach across as well. Try one side shoulder harness at your elbow at a time. Continue to dirt dive figuring out the several complications 'your' loose harness can cause 'you'. Along with the loose harness have a buddy hold your camera wing in the way and flop it around. Among other things, 3 things happen visually 1 flopping chest strap gets in the way of seeing handles. 2 wing gets into the visual like you know and understand. 3 the harness can rotate if you go for reaching across to pull reserve handle with right hand, along with the possibility of coming partially out of the harness putting the reserve handle up as high as your shoulder and back and under your arm pit. Shindig's shoulder harness appears to be 2-3 inch gap off his shoulder as he flies his canopy. See the pic from his service, you'll notice his handles are already up to his arm pits in normal flight. If you feel like it. Loosen your legstraps to simulate how Shindigs gear fit him and do the test again. Let me know if you learned anything from your test. Let me know if it was a waist of time for you, once you've done the test. Unashamedly faulting? Shindigs gear had the top part of the reserve handle peeled.

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remove slider, fully loosen chest strap, release brakes.

Feeling my 'procedure after main deployment had an absurd defect in it, I refined some of my ways to survive. I jumped 3 times on the 4th of July. My first jumps back since the Saturday Shindig went in. First jumps back after revisiting my EP's, basic skydiving procedures, and safety features. 3 things changed. Added Cypres , RSL, and changed my 'Procedure after main deployment' to : Collapse and position slider, release brakes so I know if I have a good canopy or not prior to loosening the harness. I can easily loosen my chest strap with toggles in my hands. I also did crw on a jump after loosening my chest strap after releasing the brakes. I consciously have retrained myself to tighten the chest strap prior to flying close to other canopies this past week, my retraining worked, I remembered on that jump and retightened and stowed the excess chest strap prior to swooping in for a 2 stack with the skysurfer. On the night jump my chest strap was tight till after landing. Made me feel ready to survive a collision in the dark. Got that warm fuzzy prepared feeling when my harness was snug. Felt less prepared when chest strap was loose. After breaking down the 2 stack into a choreographed spiral we waved off and parted. I then loosened my chest strap and prepared for my favorite part of the skydive, the part that I lust for: 'the final 30 seconds' doing a 'Big Fat Hookturn' with resulting 'swoop' if time and space allows me. My actions as a skydiver put me into the position of performing a hookturn , or not. I've learned how to survive the gnarly 'hookturns' and 'swoops' that I perform. Thanks to Shindig I took an in depth look at the pro's and cons of hung toggle, clip/unclip camera wings, flying with loose harness, 'procedure after main deployment, aad, rsl, leaving camera on, and decisions concerning EP's. I also learned how selfish as jumpers we are. I learned more about the negative effects of arrogance. I've now been banned in 4 states for doing hookturns. Sorry, if I skydive, I do hookturns, my game. Gonna learn and continue to survive if I have my way. You probably know the seven P's. Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. I try.

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Sorry I do not have a current SIM.



You can download it free here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.htm

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Pull the shoulder harness down to your elbows then figure out how to get to and pull the handles with each hand having to reach across as well



How much too big is the yoke on your harness? My chest strap doesn't hold my rig on my shoulders. The shape of the harness does.

I do appreciate that you are trying to eliminate risk but your condemning the practice of loosening chest straps is the same as others condemning your "hook turns" or others that don't approve of CRW. To each his own.

Welcome back into the sky. Be safe and have fun.
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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Sorry I do not have a current SIM.



You can download it free here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.htm

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Pull the shoulder harness down to your elbows then figure out how to get to and pull the handles with each hand having to reach across as well



How much too big is the yoke on your harness? My chest strap doesn't hold my rig on my shoulders. The shape of the harness does.

I do appreciate that you are trying to eliminate risk but your condemning the practice of loosening chest straps is the same as others condemning your "hook turns" or others that don't approve of CRW. To each his own.

Welcome back into the sky. Be safe and have fun.

My harness yokes fit me properly on my Infinity and Mirage and Racer and Vector 3s, and the vector 2 is a little wide. Not so sure about Shindigs yoke or MLW. Seeing a pic of him from a sort of front side view flying his canopy, it looks like his shoulder harness is 2-3 inches up off his shoulders and harness spread so wide you can see the front of his shoulders. Hey, did you try my test or what? You answered with more questions and ridicule. But no real answer. U hooked me up with a SIM, but did not have answers. Helping out here or what? Thanks for welcoming me back to the sky. So far so good.

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1. Traffic
2. Toggles
3. Traffic & DZ
4. Chest strap

I have a Spectre 190 & am just off student status. I have no problem bringing both hands down while still in the toggles at the same time to loosen my chest strap. Maybe that'll change after I get a higher loaded canopy but for the foreseeable future, I think it works pretty well.

I don't have a collapsible slider right now so I don't have to play with that yet. ;)

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Hey, did you try my test or what?



I started trying it but with tight leg straps it is hard enough to slip my rig to my shoulders I can't really see that happening following a cutaway. I don't hink it is relevant with my current gear. If I am borrowing something that fits poorly I suppose it could.

After reading the speculation that he was using his left hand to keep the canopy flying straight that raises two other possible actions. One would be to watch the reserve handle to see where it goes as you would using the 2 hands per handle method. The other would be to put a hand on each handle if that is your procedure and just cut away from the hard turn. People do that all the time with spinning mals so it seems to work.

My disclaimer: all of this is food for future thought and not intended to condemn actions in a situation I don't know for fact all the details.

I am not sure of the ridicule you mention but I appologize for it.
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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Thanks for trying the test with your gear. I agree with you on most things here. Especially watching the reserve handle as you cutaway if a hand is'nt on it to see where it goes. Try the test with several rigs if you will. It amazes me the differences in gear. Maybe try a rig that the MLW is a little long for you but would still jump it. Let's say 2". And about cutaway from hard spiral, done it too, no big deal. Happened during deployment, line twists and spiraling. Did'nt make it to the loosening the chest strap part before I made it to the cutaway then reserve. Both pulls seemed easy enough. All was well. I've been prepared to have a hard cutaway and use two hands to cutaway and have yet to resort to that. If I do need to use two hands to cutaway i'll be looking at the reserve handle as I pull the cutaway. Hopefully my chest strap will be tight. Like you, wearing my custom nice fitting harness, it is a bit difficult to get the shoulder harness to go down to my elbows. When it does it pins my arm a bit. I figured out that I can get the reserve handle with my left hand and pull towards my knee to get it to pull. Pulling the handle straight out from my chest would not pull the ripcord enough, but down toward my knee it worked pretty good. How scary would it be to straighten your arm out toward your knee with that side shoulder harness already at your elbow?

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