Rear risers

[millertimeunc 0]

Around 50 jumps ago, I got my current canopy. Out of sheer curiosity and the desire to get to know my wing better, I decided last weekend to land it just using rear risers. It planed out a little further than it does on toggles, but then the lift disappeared almost instantly and I was dropped on my feet and stumbled for a step or two. Is this normal, or do I need to give more riser input? For all you swoopers out there, is this part of the reason using rear risers on a swoop is tricky?

-Cheers

The best things in life are dangerous.

[AggieDave 6]

Sounds like you stalled it.

I wouldn't worry about rears until you just can't get any more out of your swoop. That's you can't get any more out of your swoop and your swoop is so consistent that you're almost never low in it.

Its a decent skill to have incase you break a brake line. Chopping for a broken brake line may not be your favorite choice (ask Eric Butts about that one). You need to do an altitude clear and pull and work on using your rears though. It helps if you do this with your mentor so you have something relative to you for reference. See what you can get out of your rears, do some stalls and fly on the edge of a stall so you know what it feels like when your canopy is getting close to stalling.

Its easy to hook in trying to bail on your rears. That's the big reason to wait until later to use then for swooping.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Blink 0]

I don't think he is talking about swooping, rather just learning how to land on rears (as on BillVon's Downsizing Checklist).

[millertimeunc 0]

I haven't started swooping yet, just trying to learn how to fly my new canopy in various flight modes. I'd like to know for sure that I can land my canopy safely without using the toggles if the need arises. Anyone ever try it with a rear riser and a toggle?

The best things in life are dangerous.

[dragon2 0]

You DID try that up high before landig right

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Think about what you are doing when you use your toggles while you land your canopy. Your toggles emulate extended flaps on an airplane and flaps change the cord of the wing and allow the wing to fly at a slower airspeed without stalling. Now think about what you are doing when you pull down your rear risers. The cord of the wing has not changed. It is like making a no flap landing with an airplane. Both methods work, but the wing will stall at a higher air speed when you land with no flaps, or in this case land on your rear risers.

What you experienced is normal and to be expected.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[millertimeunc 0]

The rear riser flare? Yes, of course I tried it up high first. Several times.

The best things in life are dangerous.

[dragon2 0]

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The rear riser flare? Yes, of course I tried it up high first. Several times.

Then how come you stalled it on landing, and don't seem to know what happened ("should I pull it down more")?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Then how come you stalled it on landing

Come on dragon unless people are pounding in, they stall their wings on every landing that they make. Applying more toggle/riser input will cause the wing to stall faster, but since we lack thrust, our canopies eventually lose their airspeed to a point where the wing no longer flies. Ideally we are at a managable ground speed inches off the deck when our wings stall.

Instead of flaming the OP of this thread for trying a rear riser landing, we should help educate them (and others) to the various ways to control their wing. There is nothing wrong with rear riser landings, people just need to be aware that the wing will stall at a higher airspeed and (very important to mention) too much control input with the rears will cause the wing to prematurely stall at an even higher airspeed than it would if your control inputs on the rears was perfect.

To the OP: any wing can stall at any air speed and at any attitude.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

Even you're not swooping, my suggestion about practice and what happened will still work. Like I said, though, it helps if you can go up and practice next to an experienced canopy pilot in so no contact CRW (proximity flying). That way you'll have a reference as to what your canopy is doing.

I wouldn't recommend you trying to flare your canopy on landing with one toggle and one riser. However, I will tell you to go up top and try it out to see what happens.

Obviously all the "up top" practice is in clear airspace well above 4k. I prefer doing altitude clear and pulls to practice different maneuvers. One it gives you ample time to play and practice. Two, it gives you more saddle time and at the end of the day its important to train your butt to feel for what your canopy is doing.

While you're up there spend a couple of extra jumps working on bail out maneuvers (for accidental low turns) and flat turns. See what the minimum altitude you can do a 180 deg turn in is. See whats the minimum altitude for you to recover your canopy from a low "red" turn is (a hard toggle turn). These are things that you really want to know and know how to do. It might just save your life some day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DocPop 1]

IMO being able to land on rears is a useful skill to have.

My first attempt was on jump #42 when I had dislocated my shoulder on exit and could not move that arm low enough to flare using toggles.

I was unable to get my shoulder back in in freefall or under canopy so I made the decision to try rears. It was an almost zero-wind day and I certainly had a memorable landing!

Just wish I had practiced it a few times with 2 good arms!

[obadz 0]

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My first attempt was on jump #42 when I had dislocated my shoulder on exit and could not move that arm low enough to flare using toggles.

I like practicing one handed flares & turns for that eventuality (both toggles in one hand..)

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I like practicing one handed flares & turns for that eventuality (both toggles in one hand..)

I agree and encourage everyone to learn as much about their canopy in as many different flight configurations as you can safely test (i.e above 2000 in no traffic).

To the OP, I think it's commendable that you're trying to learn all these things, but I would suggest keeping it off the deck, and instead up high for now. Some of these things can be unnecessarily dangerous to try on landing at any level, but especially at yours.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skydemon2 0]

Yea practice up high, I practiced up high and know exactly how far I can pull them before the stall and I can even feel the little prestall shake that lets me know it coming so I can let up a inch or so!

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[northcave 0]

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Think about what you are doing when you use your toggles while you land your canopy. Your toggles emulate extended flaps on an airplane and flaps change the cord of the wing and allow the wing to fly at a slower airspeed without stalling. Now think about what you are doing when you pull down your rear risers. The cord of the wing has not changed. It is like making a no flap landing with an airplane. Both methods work, but the wing will stall at a higher air speed when you land with no flaps, or in this case land on your rear risers.

What you experienced is normal and to be expected.

Interesting... I too have been planning to use my rears more. Will give it some testing up high based on these comments and progress to a landing. I must say, if i was confident on rears then chopping due to a snapped brake line would be a little OTT. Good canopy + can land safely = no chop right.

[dragon2 0]

Some canopies are better able to be safely landed on rears then others, f.i. if you fly a Merit or a Springo, and have a stuck or broken brakeline, I'd chop it for sure before trying to land it on rears...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I must say, if i was confident on rears then chopping due to a snapped brake line would be a little OTT.

I must say I'd rather have one more reserve ride than thinking about long after crashing with a ball of sh1t that I could have got rid of...

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Good canopy + can land safely = no chop right.

Why a good canopy has one or more broken break lines?

I had some rear riser landings on a Pilot 150, WL 1.5+. One of them was a face plant, nothing broken just my ego.

"You have to run..... have to run fast..." - words of an experienced guy when I asked him about rear riser landings.

[northcave 0]

not one for a no wind day then

[phoenixlpr 0]

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not one for a no wind day then Laugh

Be a man, not a p0ss.... Its a leap of faith.

[DocPop 1]

That's also a good option - I landed with both toggles in one hand on my 3rd dislocation (jump #69 - the first was on AFF 2) and had a hell of a lot better landing!

I am now 6 weeks post-surgery to try to keep the offending arm attached this season!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ianmdrennan 2]

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IMO being able to land on rears is a useful skill to have.

My first attempt was on jump #42 when I had dislocated my shoulder on exit and could not move that arm low enough to flare using toggles.

I was unable to get my shoulder back in in freefall or under canopy so I made the decision to try rears. It was an almost zero-wind day and I certainly had a memorable landing!

Just wish I had practiced it a few times with 2 good arms!

You don't think the better option would have been to leave the toggles stowed, use your good arm to steer back to the dz, and plf for landing?

If you KNOW you're injured and unable to use both controls, why would you intentionally put your canopy in a faster configuration (full flight/glide)?

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[DocPop 1]

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You don't think the better option would have been to leave the toggles stowed, use your good arm to steer back to the dz, and plf for landing?

If you KNOW you're injured and unable to use both controls, why would you intentionally put your canopy in a faster configuration (full flight/glide)?

Blues,
Ian

That makes a lot of sense. I have very low jump #'s and I respect your advice but now I have done a successful one-handed flare I think that will be my option of choice - but I am going to practice it as part of my practice flares on every jump.

Maybe if it was a no wind day I would opt for the "brakes stowed and eat dirt" option - I have jumped round canopies and I know PLF is your friend!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Pendragon 1]

Just an aside - what you feel comfortable with now (given level of currency, canopy type etc) may change in the future (lay-off, canopy downsize etc).

Similarly, landing on rears if you're on a Manta 250 at 0.8 lbs/sq ft is very different to a Katana 109 @ 1.8!

Ian's solution is likely to be the "play-safe" option.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[in2jumping 0]

Quote

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You don't think the better option would have been to leave the toggles stowed, use your good arm to steer back to the dz, and plf for landing?

If you KNOW you're injured and unable to use both controls, why would you intentionally put your canopy in a faster configuration (full flight/glide)?

Blues,
Ian

That makes a lot of sense. I have very low jump #'s and I respect your advice but now I have done a successful one-handed flare I think that will be my option of choice - but I am going to practice it as part of my practice flares on every jump.

Maybe if it was a no wind day I would opt for the "brakes stowed and eat dirt" option - I have jumped round canopies and I know PLF is your friend!

I don't know about trying to flare both toggles with one hand, a screw up could result in a low very hard turn into the ground. I would much rather land with them stowed/half brakes with a plf.

[murps2000 86]

Anyone ever try it with a rear riser and a toggle?
***

I never had to land it, but I've done it up high a few times while practicing swoops and then dropping a toggle just to see how quickly i could get the canopy back under control and maybe salvage a flare. At 1.5 wl it was difficult to get right on the first try. I was surprised at how much roll authority one rear riser had while pulling the opposite toggle. I assume this was because it was easy to stall that side of the wing. As you might expect, there was also a slight yaw effect favoring the toggle side.