Cobalt x Vengeance comparison

[Ronaldo 0]

I currently fly a Cobalt 150 (H-mod) and found a good deal on a Vengeance 135. I have never jumped one so I did a search and found divergent opinions. I would like to hear from people who have jumped both how do they compare (specially flight and landings). I read that Vengeance is prone to weird openings, fly bigger, etc. In fact, I had the impression that PD is no longer advertising it (there's apparently no link at their web page).
I really like my Cobalt's flight, get great landings with it (180º carves) and have consistent soft openings (after the H-mod).
As I'm in Brazil demos are not a common option so I'm afraid to buy it, get disappointed and get stuck with it.
Safe skies,

Ronaldo

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Veng_Flight.PDF

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

http://www.performancedesigns.com/vengeance.asp

[ianmdrennan 2]

PD no longer sells the Vengence. They will, however, maintain it.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ronaldo 0]

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PD no longer sells the Vengence. They will, however, maintain it.

Blues,
Ian

Thanks, I didn't know that! This changes everything.
Safe skies!

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Ronaldo 0]

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http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Veng_Flight.PDF

Thanks, I have already read that but I was looking for opinions from people who had the opportunity to fly both canopy models. The fact that it is a discontinued product has a considerable impact in my decision now.
Blue skies

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[PhreeZone 14]

Why? Just since it is not being made does not meen that PD does not stand behind the canopy still. They don't make the Sabre anymore either but would you pass one of those by if the price was right?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freeflyn 0]

You indicated that you are currently happy with the opening, flight, and landing of your cobalt. What is your motivation for replacing your canopy? What are your long term goals (regarding cp) and how does this fit into your plan of action?

[Ronaldo 0]

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Why? Just since it is not being made does not meen that PD does not stand behind the canopy still.

Sure PhreeZone, it just helped me re-evaluate the deal. Of course, being discontinued will not make it a bad canopy now. In fact, I'm still curious to hear from people who have tried both.
BTW, I really like the original Sabre. I think most beginners skip the chance of getting one for their first gear thus saving a lot of money to jump.
BS

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Ronaldo 0]

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You indicated that you are currently happy with the opening, flight, and landing of your cobalt. What is your motivation for replacing your canopy? What are your long term goals (regarding cp) and how does this fit into your plan of action?

You're right, it was just opportunity. It seemed like a good deal specially because dollar exchange rates are favorable.
I was not thinking about downsizing now but I know I would in the future as I really enjoy HP landings. Future plans are to jump a lot as I'm having the opportunity to start as a camera flyer. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very comfortable with my canopy and would not jump a smaller one if I felt I could not do it safely.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

I did about 10 jumps on 2 different Vengeances both 120 loaded at 1.68.
Openings where very soft but very sensitive on bodyposition whitch can cause off-heading openings but if you are used to that it's not a problem.
For the rest it flies great, nice dive, longer recovery then the Stiletto.
But you can check this forum also because there are some review for that canopy.
A friend of mine had one and did more then 1600 jumps with it and had no problem, he liked the canopy very much.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=164177;search_string=Vengeance;#164177

[robap26 0]

PD has not discontinued the Vengeance. They just stopped advertising it. If you want to order a new one, you can.
The Vengeance is a great canopy and could be considered a nice step in a reasonable canopy progression. You will find it to be about equal to your Cobalt in responsiveness. The Ven. actually feels a little less responsive then the same size Cobalt but because you will be downsizing it will feel about the same. The truth is, it's actually just as responsive maybe even more but it's deeper in the input range. The wing will also feel more rigid over your head. The Ven will have more over all range. You'll be able to glide further on rears flying back from those long spots. (doing camera you'll have to get used to that). The full flight angle of attack is steeper then the Cobalt. It may seem like you're running out of altitude too quickly if you don't use the brakes or rears. You will be able to float in deep brakes or let the thing fall out of the sky in full flight. This makes the Ven. great for air-to-air filming. If your wing loading is good (1.8 is Perfect) you will not be able to beat it's range without going to crossbraced. The Ven is a very stable canopy. Most noticeably in turbulent winds. The air locks are not just a gimmick, they actually do work. They help maintain cell pressure and minimize distortion of the air foil. It's stable in deep brakes but does not recover from a stall very nicely so you'll want to learn the limits. The air locks can be a bit annoying when gathering up your canopy after landing. It sometimes wants to stay inflated. You'll learn the tricks to handle it though.
The opening are a bit odd. They are not hard but sometimes dive off heading. They don't tend to spin up though. Just dive one way or the other. Most people say theirs has a preferred direction. Like, it tends to always dive to the right for example.
Landings are very nice. The Ven will produce more lift and at lower speeds then your Cobalt. This means it will keep flying longer through the landing. Your touch down speed will therefor be less. For swooping I think you will prefer the Ven over your Cobalt. It will dive more in your turn, hold that dive longer and will not have a tendency to over recover. It's longer dive will get it going faster and it's higher lift will keep it swooping longer. When it's right it's beautiful. You just lightly bump the rears and it planes out flat and flies itself. You could let go for the first 40% of your swoop. Again, you will have to go with a crossbraced canopy to get much better.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I just had a chat with PD and this was their response:

"we still service and maintain the VN but no longer offer it as a part of our active product line"

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ronaldo 0]

Thanks Rob, that is some really valuable information

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The Ven will produce more lift and at lower speeds then your Cobalt. This means it will keep flying longer through the landing. Your touch down speed will therefor be less.

Wow, that will really be a big surprise! One of the Cobalt's most impressive qualities (IMO) is the ability to really slow your speed before touch down. In a couple of occasions people came to me to ask which canopy I was flying, right after seeing me landing . They were really amazed to see me popping up at the end of the swoop and touching the ground with almost zero speed. The flare is extremely powerful, you can really feel that (no sponsoring involved

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For swooping I think you will prefer the Ven over your Cobalt. It will dive more in your turn, hold that dive longer and will not have a tendency to over recover. It's longer dive will get it going faster and it's higher lift will keep it swooping longer.

That would be another very good surprise. I get very long swoops with it too (for a wl of 1.3, of course). I may have had some opening issues with the canopy before the h-mod, but I have always loved its flight performance. If the Vengeance can match or even pass it then it would be just perfect
I would buy a used Cobalt or Competition C135 but these are very difficult to find. I would never buy a new one again as it won't have resale value (the canopy is unknown here in Brazil).

Thanks a lot for the feedback, I really appreciate
Safe skies!

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[jurgencamps 0]

I have never jumped a cobalt, but I have 1600 jumps on a vengeance (VN) 120 (WL 1,65).
This canopy flies extremely well at slow speeds.
Some VN open weird, some open very good. So test jump the canopy, but I advise you not to jump it with a light WL or with a WL above 1.8.

I really liked the canopy. It dives good, it can go fast and and also it keeps flying at slow speeds. It's a very good all-round canopy, with a lot flare and lift.
At the end, I did 270's at 570 ft.
Now a few years and 900 jumps (katana, velocity) later, I will buy my old VN back from the guy I sold it to and will jump it again. But thats another story (an injury which will keep me from jumping my velo for the next months/years)

Cu

Jurgen

[dragon2 0]

I jumped my veng135 @ a wl of 1.2-1.3 (w/lead), loved it. It packs up big though and I wanted a smaller rig. Mine opens on heading every time, as does the borrowed 120 I jump sometimes, I jumped another 135 that always opened/dove to the left Wouldn't recommend buying a vengeance without test jumping that particular canopy first... My 135 is so nice I did some wingsuit jumps with it too I could only fit a veng97 in my current rig, not an option when jumping a wingsuit and too small for me anyway, but if I ever get a 2nd rig again, a veng135 or 120 would be high on my list

ciel bleu,
Saskia