agent_lead 0 #1 March 12, 2008 i weigh about 200 out the door...i am jumping a safire2 189 now...buying a katana 170... actually im demoing one this weekend before i buy..want to learn how to swoop thoughts advice and criticisms?-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 March 12, 2008 Is this a decent choice? Maybe. What were you doing before with your Safire2? Coaching? I would be worried if you haven't done any sort of swooping and you're buying a Katana to start with. The Katana is a no-shit rocket, even at lighter wingloadings. You can't buy a higher performance non-cross braced canopy. Its basically a Velocity minus. Whats the minus? The bottom end. Are we the ones to tell you that you're ready for this canopy? Not really. You're in the jump numbers range that could be considered appropriate; however, that doesn't mean that you're at the skill level to fly that canopy safely. Are you asking here because people at your DZ are telling you its a bad idea? That should be a sign.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #3 March 12, 2008 no actually my rigger/ s&ta at my pro shop recommended it for me...im asking here for a second opinion..just wondering what other people may think about it i wasnt going crazy with the safire as it was fairly large and not really a canopy to swoop with as it recovers immediately.. i dont want to get into swooping this season but i would like to lay some framework down with a solid understanding of how this canopy flies and learn on it all season without being overly aggressive with it..maybe get some good canopy coaching with fro or tj over the summer and just figure it out for at least a whole season before i start doing 90's and above..-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 March 12, 2008 The foundation should have started on the Safire2. The foundation is a predictable landing pattern, accuracy and learning the basic skill set needed to advance. That includes an understanding of the dynamics involved in a recovery arc, flat turns, bail out maneuvers...well, the list goes on. Basically at this point you should be able to turn 90degs to final with the front risers and have the canopy recover correctly to a predictable and safe swoop right where you wanted it. Sure you won't go 500ft, but you need those skills to progress. Can you do those things on a Katana? Sure. Also understand that I don't know you and I tend to be very conservative in my advise on the internet. All I can say is be careful and get good coaching.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #5 March 12, 2008 QuoteThe foundation should have started on the Safire2. The foundation is a predictable landing pattern, accuracy and learning the basic skill set needed to advance. That includes an understanding of the dynamics involved in a recovery arc, flat turns, bail out maneuvers...well, the list goes on. Basically at this point you should be able to turn 90degs to final with the front risers and have the canopy recover correctly to a predictable and safe swoop right where you wanted it. Sure you won't go 500ft, but you need those skills to progress. Can you do those things on a Katana? Sure. Also understand that I don't know you and I tend to be very conservative in my advise on the internet. All I can say is be careful and get good coaching. yes i can do all of that on my safire..im really just wanting a new faster canopy for this upcoming season that i can do around 250 jumps with and really learn the flight characteristics before going any further.-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #6 March 12, 2008 Quote The Katana is a no-shit rocket, even at lighter wingloadings. You can't buy a higher performance non-cross braced canopy. Its basically a Velocity minus. Whats the minus? The bottom end. Agree 100%. I demoed a Katana 150 after putting 300 jumps on a Sabre 2 150 (and swooping it). I was AMAZED at the difference. Even at the same wingloading, the Katana was just way too much canopy for me. It needs your 100% attention from beginning to end. My next canopy will be a Sabre 2 135. That's not for a while though, even after putting 650 jumps on my Sabre 2 150 and getting pro-rated on it, I still haven't quite maxed out the performance yet. Maybe I'm a slow learner, I don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 March 12, 2008 Quoteactually im demoing one this weekend before i buy..want to learn how to swoop thoughts advice and criticisms? I'd rather demo a safire2 169, Sabre2 170 or a Cobalt 170. I think all you need is predictable opening,decent recovery arc and moderate front riser pressure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #8 March 12, 2008 I wouldn´t recommend the Katana for you. I agree with what AggieDave is saying (Velocity minus, highest performing non cross braced...). You´d have to deal with a WAY longer recovery arc! Better be careful... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #9 March 12, 2008 Lead, if it is the owner of said same shop, and knowing how conservative he is on giving advice to people regarding elliptical canopies...I am kinda shocked to hear this...I personally would spend some time moving down in sizes learnign all the way on a similar canopy to what you have now... and then think about the katana.. You jumping up north still? Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 March 12, 2008 A better idea would to be start learning how to swoop on your current canopy.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #11 March 12, 2008 also I will say this the first couple of times I jumped the katana it scared the bajesus out of me... I remember pulling a 90 degree turn and all of a sudden I lost like 400 ft... a few months later after spending some time jumping the smaller sizes of crossfires I demoed another on even smaller and it didnt freak me out as much PM me if you want to talk in person about this as well Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #12 March 12, 2008 Just food for thought. A 170 is a pretty big wing, and it's going to recover relatively quickly at 1.17 With 450 jumps I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable suggestion. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #13 March 12, 2008 hey wassup dave... yeah its who your thinking...we were gonna go for a stiletto and then he suggested the katana 170..so we ordered a demo right there and it should be here for the weekend..i have someone willing to sell me a brand new katana never hooked up still in the bag for $1775..actually the exact same colors i need to match my new rig..so if all goes well this weekend and next weekend on this canopy i will most likely buy it... who knows maybe the first jump will scare the shit out of me and ill never jump it again...or maybe ill fall in love with it..who really knows? i honestly just cant wait to demo it and see what its all about.. and yeah im still up there every weekend..even in the cold! where are you?-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #14 March 12, 2008 So I know you will get a primer from the big guy...but just because I will kick myself if I dont... Do a hop and pops to 7,900ft on the first few jumps with it... get all fixed up with your apres opening chores... try double fronts in following variations double fronts by self flare then double fronts fly in brakes for a while then double fronts note the differences in altitude loss and pitch and recovery altitude of dive note what different brake turn types will do one toggle, two toggles, offset braked turns. figure out what flaring out of all of the above drills will do... these are learning drills for the canopy that will aid you going forward and understanding different flight modes of the canopy you are demoing... keep to your normal pattern landing for now it wil aid you going forward I promise... Good luck maybe we will run into each other this weekend. Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #15 March 12, 2008 A couple thoughts: - the katana at light wingloadings seems to take forEVER to open, with some associated problems, at least the ones I've seen. I know people who got scared because of that (people with 2000+ jumps each) and won't jump a katana 150 again. - our national rules say no katana (of any size) before 700 jumps, there's a reason for that - if you want to learn to swoop, a sabre2 is a good choice, it has a decent recovery arc but none of the hp opening issues If i were you, I'd buy a sabre 2 of the same size or one size smaller and learn how to swoop on that. After that, maybe a katana, but maybe you'd like a smaller sabre2 or something like a vision before jumping a katana, after that time you can load it up some more and it'll open and fly like it was designed to do. Going from a safire to a katana now, you'd be skipping one or two classes of canopies, sounds like a bad idea to me, esp at your jumpnumber. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #16 March 12, 2008 dave...thanks for the tips...i planed on opening as soon as i hit terminal from altitude all weekend with this canopy i will try all of those things you have listed on each jump if altitude permits...the big guy has already told me that there will be a serious briefing before getting on the plane and after my first landing...we both know that he will take care of me well.. thanks for the concern! and dragon..thanks for the suggestions..i flew a sabre2 before i had my safire and i liked it but its still not where i want to be this coming season..like i said before..maybe ill make one jump and scare the shit out of myself..and opt for a stiletto or a sabre2 instead.. also..what kind of opening problems do you think i will encounter at this wingloading? im open to all suggestions and comments but i really wanna at least demo this canopy before making any decisions-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #17 March 12, 2008 Quote..and opt for a stiletto or a sabre2 instead.. Forget about the spinletto and go for the Sabre2. There are lots of Stilettos for sale. There should be a reason... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #18 March 12, 2008 you know there is a guy in the cpc tearing it up on a sabre 2 from what I hear...load em up and they fly real nice.... and I know I repeat myself for most of those involved...but I did learn most of what I know about swooping on a sabre2 170... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #19 March 12, 2008 quick recovery by your standards, but your not used to a safire2 189 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #20 March 12, 2008 but seriously it is a 170... shit I might ask lead to borrow it over the weekend to see what a 170 katana feels like as we weigh about the same...all I have flown is the 120 and 107 and yeah those dove like crackwhores in sheetrock factories...not so sure the 170 will be as sporty at a lower wingloading... PS I will stand by leads decision he is not a rash person and is actually coming from the perspective of taking advice from some pretty damn safety conscious people...and heres the caveat...he might jump it and say fuck that noise...and thats the kinda guy he is... I gave him some drills that will show him a bit of what the canopy can do and might even give him the oh shit factor of damn this thing is serious business... Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #21 March 12, 2008 i appreciate that dave...hopefully we get some jumpable weather this weekend..it'd be nice to see ya since you missed the PR boogie!!-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #22 March 12, 2008 QuoteJust food for thought. A 170 is a pretty big wing, and it's going to recover relatively quickly at 1.17 With 450 jumps I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable suggestion. Blues, Ian I'm just curious as to why anyone would wish to jump such a canopy at less than 1.6? By that I'm not suggesting such a rash downsize, rather why go for the complications when you won't get the full benefits? Wouldn't a Safire2/Sabre2 be a better choice at such a w/l? Besides (and the Lead may be) shouldn't an individual be in a position whereby they're nailing 270s before going onto such a planform (if swooping is the objective?) That's what I was doing on a Safire2 129 @ 1.6 before moving to a xfire2 109 @ 1.8 Just thoughts...-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyshimas 0 #23 March 13, 2008 Leads going to Katana! Good luck bro, be safe and have fun. haven't seen you land for a long time as I understand you came a long way now. I just bought another crossfire. It is crossfire2 119 after jumping it will demo katana 120 as well to see how they differ. As I understand from peoples reviews in these forums XF's are less ground hungry than katana's. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad choice for ya? just an option. Also a thought in my opinion it is harder to sell big hp canopy than a conventional wing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #24 March 13, 2008 I wasnt nailing 270s when I moved to the crossfire at all... I was only nailing 180s...of course now the 270s are in place :-P Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #25 March 13, 2008 It's not a terrible choice, but it's not a great choice either. I think you'd be much happier with an appropriately sized Saber2 then you would a Katana. My biggest concern is that you should be learning to swoop on a more predictable canopy. At the point that you are at right now, and where you'll be for the next few hundred jumps, you just won't appreciate what the Katana offers. A Saber2 is a much better choice. If the only reason to get a Katana is the image it offers, then I suggest buying something else. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
