Road to Velo

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

I have been getting 2 stories, not only from you guys but allso from people I know & respect in person.

One group tells me to go Katana, a good preparation for going Xbraced afterwards.

The other group tells me the Velo, though it has a different set of characteristics, is an option as well.

After long talks about this I have decided to just try both and make a decision based on my own findings.

The testmissiles will be the Ka 107 and the Ve 103.
Both will be loaded close to 2.0 lbs/ft².

I do realise that the extra speed and performance of the Velo might be addictive. This is why I'll be closely looking at some specific characteristics.

I will be flying cameras with my new canopy, so the opening is important.
Secondly I will be looking at glide-angle/distance on rears to come back from less ideal spots.
Then I will be looking at control in brakes to fly in traffic.
Offcourse the landing will be quite important.
Dive & recovery and bottom-end flare will be very important. The dive & recovery are specific to any canopy, this is something you can adapt to.
Bottom-end flare can't be altered, the right technique can help you optimize it but every canopy stops flying at a certain point. On the Katana I find there is a point in the swoop where you start to loose speed very fast and you get near the stall-point very rapidly. I didn't like that too much, but this is where maybe I can work on technique to optimize this.
I'm eager to find out how the Velo compares.

I will let you know about my findings.

I like the experiment, gives me a Chuck Yeager feeling, difference is he didn't have a clue what to expect when he strapped into the X-1.
I do however know that the speeds I will be approaching at require a certain degree of respect.

Will keep yall posted.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[speedy 0]

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I will be flying cameras with my new canopy, so the opening is important.
Secondly I will be looking at glide-angle/distance on rears to come back from less ideal spots.

I do lot's of camera jumps with my Velo. Plus points for the canopys nice and soft openings. Whether it opens on heading is not so important as the 4 way team is below me tracking away.

Getting back from long spots after doing Tandem video only really works if you have wind to work with. Then the solution is deep brakes. Using rears does not seem to help me at all.

There again what do I know, I only have a little over 1000 jumps on a Velo 90.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

I don't care much about on-heading-openings, When I'm doing video I'm in clear skies, and after jumping a Stiletto for 1300 jumps I'm used to keeping it straight or making it 360 in a crowd.

Soft however i do like. Clearly any canopy can spank you from time to time, If the spanking doesn't exceed a 5% average I'm happy...

About long spots, I've had many people telling me deep brakes is the way to go, and I've had lots of practise having tandems going out last all the time, and still it feels like in many circumstances rears get me further. (you know that feeling of a shallowerr angle without loosing too much speed whilst being carried by the wind). I am still wondering if there is proof of this conception that brakes will get you further. To me it doesn't make sense that the method that screws up the aerodynamics of your canopy the most will get you further. There must be some point (in relation to wind speed) where one method gets better than the other. I can't, for the sake of the easy example, imagine coming further in brakes on a zero wind day.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Bottom-end flare can't be altered, the right technique can help you optimize it but every canopy stops flying at a certain point. On the Katana I find there is a point in the swoop where you start to loose speed very fast and you get near the stall-point very rapidly. I didn't like that too much, but this is where maybe I can work on technique to optimize this.

Flying the canopy until it stops producing enough lift does not produce the slowest landing speed. For that you need to actively manage your energy flying so that your feet would be below ground level and coming back up to land. Brian Germain's no-wind/seagull landing article gives a good description.

Changes in canopy technology increase the wing loading at which merely flying the canopy until it stops ceases to be pleasant although the point is still there and gets lower when you increase density altitude (Colorado is exciting at 8-10,000 feet on a hot summer day) or add a tail wind (which you'll eventually land with).

Since your canopy doesn't get bigger when you have a tail wind or vacation at a high-altitude DZ, mastering that technique before you need it would be a fine idea.

[speedy 0]

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I can't, for the sake of the easy example, imagine coming further in brakes on a zero wind day.

Quite correct. All I am saying is that the Velo sinks. It is not the ideal canopy for long spots. Generally I have wind to work with, therefore deeps brakes is the answer.
The last time I missed the DZ was on a no wind day. There again the Tandem did not have much room to spare either.

Really the Velocity is not designed with Tandems videos in mind. But what the hell, if I can get away with it I've got the best of both worlds.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[swilson 0]

Play around with the attached Excel file by changing only the numbers in blue. Distance covered over the ground is shown as a function of wind speed, assuming a tailwind.

You can see that it doesn't take much of a tailwind for deep brakes to give you the farthest distance over the ground, because it keeps you in the air for a longer time.

The descent rate and forward speed numbers I used were educated guesses based on how long my canopy rides are on hop 'n pops. If you have better numbers, by all means try them and see what it does.

Of course, this is only a crude mathematical model, and does not take into account different winds at different altitudes, and so on, so YMMV...

[dragon2 0]

It seems to depend on the canopy... My safire goes much further on rears than using brakes, my vengeance seems to like brakes better, my spectre definately did. Might also be related to wingloading, the safire i load the highest. If I slowly float along with the wind for a long time i can get pretty far. The safire however doesn't float that well.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[freeflye73 0]

Hi!
I demo a samurai, and compare it to the katana, i did and the samurai opens better , are not as ground hungry. loses about the same altitude in a dive and goes forever on the rears.I jumped them at a wl of 1:7 so it might behave different on a 2:0 loading. The katana size was 135, and the samurai 136, the samurai has the new HMA linset, witch i think all manufactured in the last year or so has.

[Fast 0]

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Hi!
I demo a samurai, and compare it to the katana, i did and the samurai opens better , are not as ground hungry. loses about the same altitude in a dive and goes forever on the rears.I jumped them at a wl of 1:7 so it might behave different on a 2:0 loading. The katana size was 135, and the samurai 136, the samurai has the new HMA linset, witch i think all manufactured in the last year or so has.

On the road to a velo, jumping something ground hungry seems like a damn good idea, cause... man,.... the Velocity wants to be on the ground, now!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[freeflye73 0]

A samaurai is plenty ground hungry compared to a sabre2 etc, but since he wanted a canopy that is easy to get home from bad spots, and the samurai planes out real nice on the rears. I know the velocity is extremely ground hungry, i jumped a 103 at 2:2

I think that the dive and recovery arc are far more important things to get used to on the road to a velo than how ground hungry the canopy is.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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A samaurai is plenty ground hungry compared to a sabre2 etc, but since he wanted a canopy that is easy to get home from bad spots, and the samurai planes out real nice on the rears. I know the velocity is extremely ground hungry, i jumped a 103 at 2:2

Any numbers? I spend less than 2 minutes under a Cobalt135 WL 1.7+.

[freeflye73 0]

Canopy time numbers?

I have no problem letting bigger and lightly loaded land before me if i want, and i haven't landed out in over 2 years and i do my share of tandem videos.
Regarding ground hungry, The neptune reads 11-12m/s decent rate under the samurai, the katana if i remember correctly was 13 m/s, velo loaded at 2:2 16 to17m/s decent rate,

[dharma1976 0]

I need to check it it feels like a minute most of the time

deploy around 3k if I am not in deep brakes land in under a minute

I always love the neptune saying hey you havent pulled yet on my hip

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dploi 0]

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A samaurai is plenty ground hungry compared to a sabre2 etc, but since he wanted a canopy that is easy to get home from bad spots, and the samurai planes out real nice on the rears. I know the velocity is extremely ground hungry, i jumped a 103 at 2:2

Any numbers? I spend less than 2 minutes under a Cobalt135 WL 1.7+.

Time is irrelevant, it's all about glide. The Velo will get you down more quickly, but it has a flatter glide on heavy rears than many canopies. Getting back from a very long spot is not an issue, so long as you fly it right.

[matt3sa 0]

If you're swooping all of the other canopies and doing it safely, go for the Velocity. If you're really ready, then you won't be as challenged by the transition to X-brace. Just don't do anything aggressive. Demo one first at the same size you've been jumping. I went from a 150 jumps on a Cobalt 135 to demoing a Velo 120. My first approach was a long slow toggle carve and I was amazed the long predictable recovery arc. Just don't go nuts at first. Just the regular pattern approaches will give you excitement on that canopy (for a few jumps anyway). Be safe and have fun. Don't forget to write a review on DZ Gear if you demo one. It will help people make a good decision when they are considering trying one.

[Spizzzarko 0]

General thoughts on the velo:

I have seen a lot of people swooping on a velo who have no business jumping one. IMHO the velo is a rather complicated canopy to learn. I started jumping CB canopies with a FX 104 and then to a VX 98. I went to a velo 103 from the VX and hated it!!!! It took me a good couple of hundred jumps to learn a few intracacies of the velo. Even now I do not feel that I know all that the the canopy has to offer. If I were to recomend a good first CB canopy I would tell people to go back a notch and really freakin learn the katana.

I know PD is putting out the new VELO (named Grant because of my awesome abilities ), but you should not overlook the capabilities of the katana or original velo. If you are going to be doing working jumps then the new velo may not be the best canopy for you. I have used the original velo as a working canopy for many applications to include AFFI, Camera, and AFFI evaluator. If I were to do it all over again I would choose a katana for a working canopy, but if you are only swooping and doing hop and pops then maybe the new velo would be ideal for you from what I have seen.

PD's 3ooLBS hma does not last an exhorbanent amount of time, but if you are going to be flying on the cutting edge then you need to be ready to maintain your wing with the most stringent of standards.

From what I have seen the new Velo is going to be a monster, and is going to be a complimentary answer to the JVX.

The JVX is not a bad canopy. I have a few jumps under one, but you really need to load it up and the sail material is a bit bulkier. This will allow you to upsize your rig (upsizing your rig is not a bad thing... You can fly a bigger reserve and have a better resale value). If you really want a good opinion about the JVX then you need to talk to Paul Russow. He is called "proswooper" here online. Not only is he a good dude, but he is probably the most experienced dude on the JVX in the US. I am proud to call Paul an aquantance of mine.

Conversly, the velo likes a little lesser of a wing loading (actually wing loading is a shitty comparison of one wing to another, as it comes down to the way manufacturers measure their wings. A less nebulous quantifying factor such as a lift over drag ratio would be better to compare different wings) so you can fly a bigger wing and still get a great shut down. A bigger wing will give you better distance and accuracy as long as it is flown correctly.

These are just my thoughts on the cool canopies out there. If yu really want some good info then you need to ask the pro's like Ian, Stu, or Paul. Theses are good dudes, and they will not steer you wrong.

Grant S. Adams

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Sunday morning.
Clear blue skies, little wind and temperatures near freezing point (for water that is Ideal to go to a DZ with a Velo 103 in my new Odyssey.

5 Hop 'n pops @ 5000 ft.

All I can say is WOOOHOOO!

Damn this thing is fun to fly.
I took the advice of a couple of friends and let the canopy fly it's own course through the opening.
On the 3rd jump I forgot to quit old habits resulting in some line-twists. Got them out pretty easily. I was more aware in my last 2 jumps and started to feel & follow the canopy during the opening sequence. All openings were subterminals after a slow backloop showoff exit, so 3-4 seconds.

The distance covered in brakes is amazing, I expected a much steeper glide slope in brakes.

Then there's riser pressure...

I practised some techniques up high, the ones that require a lot of riser imput (read muscle power) will be skipped on coming occasions. Following a friends advise I went to double fronts with weightshift to turn. That worked great. The canopy's response to weightshift is really good.
On my stiletto's I used to throw my weight around to adjust my turns, but making the entire turn with my weight was new to me. I'll be working on that technique as from now.

Landings...

For the first one I decided to go with a very shallow 90, built up some speed and tried to really feel the canopy. I was amazed by the bottom-end flare. At some point I thought I was running out of lift so I pushed the finish. To my surprise I wasn't out of lift, I actually had enough lift to go up again, and the thing just kept on flying. So that was nice.

For the next jump I planned a 180, but changed that plan to a 270 after talking to a friend. (the see where you're going thing, no traffic issue this time cause I was all alone in the sky).

Got some practise up high and set up for 720-730ft.
I used a muscle-eating technique, but managed to finish the turn as planned.
I waited a bit too long with small input for flying level, resulting in too much input (not spectacular) so I lost some speed there, but still the swoop was great, and very controllable.

On the next jumps I worked on the cornering technique and flew the last approach on weight shift alone, this gave me an excellent speed and recovery.
used minimal input to level the canopy and
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
During the swoop I was thinking (speaking to canopy) Okay you made your point, you're not a Stiletto!!!
When I was standing there stowing my brakes I was smiling ear to ear.
Always cool to end a day like that. It's a 1.5 hour drive from the drop zone to my girlfriends house, when I got there I was still smiling. (And she was like: I'd like to think you're happy to see me! -That too dear- Do you like your new toy that much?)

This canopy is not leaving my rig anymore. I absolutely love the amount of control you have at very high and very low speeds (and everything inbetween. The openings are soft but require a different technique than what I'm used to. Riser pressure is high so technique is more important than muscle power, and the speed and swoops are sooo nice.

Love it!

Thanx all for your input, you really helped me out!

Peace, love & understanding

Tomsky out.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[Fast 0]

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stuff

yea, it basically flies brilliantly... just be careful and have fun!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Allright, thought I'd give an update...

Been flying the Velo for 2 months now (only 20 jumps. Did some freefly, some tandemvids and some swoopjumps).

I abso-fucking-lutely love this canopy.

I love the way it cuts through the skies.
The Velo is a very stable chute, it never gives me a twitchy feel (unlike Stiletto's and Katana's).

In deep brakes I can get back from long spots, and when releasing the brakes all hell brakes loose (speed-wise).

Terminal openings are great, if you let the canopy find it's own way you're fine. Terminal openings are soft enought for my cam-flying needs (and I tend to jump with quite some weight on my FTP...)

Subterminal openings are very twitchy because of the lack of speed. That's why I now prefer a 6-8 seconds delay for my hop 'n pops.

I'm getting used to the harness turns for my 270 and to my set-up.
Last week I actually nailed 3 consecutive pondswoops without having to make big adjustments to my circuit, and nailing the altitude and place where I want to start my last turn (740 ft now, don't see a need to go lower because it works)

Got my first wet shoe with the Velo this weekend.
The WOOOOOHOOOOOO's don't seem to end with this thing.

If someone has the necessary experience in swooping "normal" canopies I think skipping a Katana-type canopy in the process is no problem at all.

Once again thanx for your input!

Safe swoops!

P.s.: Looking for another Velo 103 for my 2nd rig, needs to get paid from and shipped to Europe, if that isn't a problem lemme know!

Editted for typo's

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[piahenzi 0]

I've enjoyed your posting on this transition. I am on a XF2 99 w/l 1.7 and starting to toy with the idea of going to XB canopy after another season on the XF and being very current. I've been told to demo the Katana, Velo and even the Xaos 27 which I will do as soon as I feel ready. I'd love to be able to make the transition to Velo w/o the Katana in between but I am a little low on courage with that right now and I need to dial in the rears on the XF before it's even worth scaring myself

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

Hi Mr Airpollution,

Next time more pictures of you swooping the pond.
Last weekend it was my turn.
Don't blame me, it was your girlfriend who took the picture hé

Cya this weekend again?

Luc

[Metekanya 0]

It was a great post to read. I presume we are quite a few pilots in the same situation and with the same thoughts, doubts and fears.

I guess its all about being patient and preparing yourself conveniently. More tips on different techniques in detail would be fantastic for me, to compare with how I am doing, and surely for many many other swoopers. Pros, please, delight us! It will never be the substitute to proper couching, but wisdom is never a burden.