0
hackish

What do you do before learning to swoop?

Recommended Posts

If the driver could get me up to 13k in 9 minutes as some DZs advertise then I suppose the wallet would run out faster in the weekend than the daylight.

This past weekend I got to... erm had to front-riser a landing a bit. I still had a good standup but it was one of those jumps that was dodgy at best. Upper winds were about 70mph and the lower winds had gone from 5 on takeoff to 20 by the time I landed.

I got set up for final at about 1000' drifting backwards over the landing area so I held the front risers hard enough for no penetration. Wow my triceps are sore.

Now for the question... I had absolutely 0 ground speed but eased off the fronts about 25' above the ground and went for a flare to reduce the sink rate. The trouble was this made me swing forward and obviously start moving backwards.

I know this was far from ideal and I landed walking backward and nearly got dragged off my feet shortly after! Is it better in a situation like this to stay at full flight or a bit of fronts and accept a fast sink rate rather than try to run it out backwards? Bear in mind too that I'm flying a sabre 210 so it's no rocketship.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Oh you mean this jumps thing in the profile isn't to document how many jumps you're doing per week? There are a lot of tandems and not that many fun jumpers and as soon as I'm finished packing I'm telling the manifest guy to find me a slot... A good day would be 5 jumps while most regulars only choose to do 2-3.

-Michael



What..you mean it isn't per week? So AggieDave didn't do 2200 jumps this weekend? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMHO it is far better to arrest your sink rate and do a rear PLF (remember those) than front riser yourself into the ground. Would you front riser until impact (I mean touchdown) with no wind? I hope not. If you wouldn't do it in no wind it doesn't make sense to do it in high winds. Read the thread in Incidents about the Skydive Orange landing injury recently. That was a near fatal double front riser landing on a Sabre2 170. Not exactly a rocketship either.

The ground is a horizontal barrier. A little vertical velocity is much more dangerous than a lot of horizontal velocity.

As someone else said earlier: slow down.

- Dan G

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I figured it was the high horizontal speed that was causing all the broken femurs and other things from front riser landings. I guess that I ended up doing pretty much the right thing. Unfortunately there wasn't really anyone paying attention to criticize it.

The second landing of the day was a few degrees off the wind line during 15mph winds - it was a hard PLF and I decided to pack it in. Thanks for years of getting thrown around in aikido. Shortly thereafter they stopped jumping.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This past weekend I got to... erm had to front-riser a landing a bit.



I read your post and I don't understand why you had to front riser the landing. Bad conditions that you are not used to is the worst time to try an unfamiliar approach. Your canopy doesn't care if there is zero wind, 20mph or if you are landing downwind. It still moves through the air the same way. In the situation you just described, you would be much better off landing backwards and PLFing.

Question - why, after having the landing you described, did you decide to jump again in those same conditions? If the wind was such that you were flying backwards in full flight and you were not comfortable landing, why did you choose to jump again?

Please be careful out there.
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I hadn't front riser'd it down I would have never made it back. The real situation had to do with the actual landing, not the extended front-riser approach. It seemed to me the right thing to do given that I wasn't moving forward at all.

As for going again I waited about 4h between jumps... waiting for the winds to die down and watched as people came in. They appeared good and things would have been ok.

I just screwed up the second landing and decided it was best to pack it in before getting hurt. On the second jump, landing approach and penetration weren't really a problem. An hour or so later the winds picked up again and they stopped jumping.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This past weekend I got to... erm had to front-riser a landing a bit.



Ya know, I've been in some pretty damn high winds, at a WL of 1.1:1 on a Sabre1, and I still have never "had" to front-riser to land. Maybe to hold up high, never to land.

Quote

it better in a situation like this to stay at full flight or a bit of fronts and accept a fast sink rate rather than try to run it out backwards?



What's better in a situation like that is to not jump. If you've already made the mistake, just PLF... you can PLF backwards just as well as forwards or sideways, just ask anyone who's been jumping 20 or 30 years.

You NEED to flare. No matter what. Full flight would hurt, and staying in fronts would likley send you to the hospital.

5 to 20 mph seems unlikley in 20 minutes, unless it was being crazy and fluctuating back and forth all day. Especially if it's 70 mph up high...
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If I hadn't front riser'd it down I would have never made it back.



That's why god made "outs". If you can't make it back, land somewhere else. A LARGE number of low turns, power line collisions and general bad shit has been the result of desperately trying to get back to the landing area. It's not worth it.

But even if you can front riser and get back (which is probably fine) you can still go to normal flight at like 100 feet instead of 25. You want to be in full flight until landing in higher wind anyway, since higher wind usually means more turbulence, and deformations such as double-fronts are frequent contributors to canopy collapses in high turbulence (having caught a rotor off a hanger at 30 feet right after coming off double fronts in high winds, and watching the right half of my canopy fold under, I would know).
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can PLF backwards just as well as forwards or sideways
Quote



Yep, I made around 30 jumps with T-10 parachutes, and PLF saves me of some mistakes landing square parachutes. One day I saw a guy landing upwind in the runway with aprox 20 mph winds, He made a PLF and come out with just a few scratches!! that was nothing compared with which it could happen to him.

Blue Skies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If I hadn't front riser'd it down I would have never made it back.



It's better to land out than break yourself or worse trying to make it back.

I'm really not trying to bash you so I hope it doesn't come off like that. It just seems like you're rushing into things very quickly and making excuses why you think it's ok when people with much more experience are warning you of these things.

When you see a lot of experienced jumpers all telling you the same thing, there's probably good reason for it. Please be careful.
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing that's difficult to explain on the interweb is that a lot of things are usually considered before deciding to do something - especially when my ass is on the line. I try to explain thoroughly what was considered before the choice was made. This may sound like I'm making excuses or trying to justify something but it is not.

I felt that front-risering down was the best choice and at a reasonable altitude the risers were no longer being held and I transitioned to flaring. Maybe front-risering down was a bad choice but it didn't seem dangerous nor did I feel like I had achieved a dangerously high sink rate. Maybe I'll see if I can get the sink rate out of the altimeter.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you want to front riser down to get penetration, leave off the front risers by 300ft or so. That'll give your canopy plenty of time to transition back to normal flight before you need to land. Note: flying in front risers in turbulence is not recommended.

If letting up the front risers at 300ft means that you're not going to make it back, then you should be landing out anyway. Cutting it that fine is a recipe for problems if, say, the wind comes up a couple of knots more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You need to downsize before you can learn to swoop. Based on your current skill level, and taking the incredible amount of experience you have into consideration, I'd suggest something sub-100. Anything larger wouldn't be enough of a challenge for someone of your skill level.



I assume you got your numbers mixed up and meant something sub-200. I've still got lots to learn on this 210 thanks.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nope, he was simply being sarcastic about what he's percieved your attitude to be.

Stay on the 210 and get coaching. Period.

Personally I recommend starting with Scott Miller's basic and advanced course.

What it (the post you replied to) comes from is years of seeing hoards of people with the wrong attitude and unwillingness to learn or listen to experience hook in. They die or get hurt, eitherway they either leave the sport in a casket or permanently disabled for life or they listen and learn.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course I caught hex's sarcasm - was just adding to it...

I've asked around a lot between Brian Germain's and Scott Miller's canopy courses. Most of the people who have taken both referred me to the latter. If I ever make it down to Deland I'll make sure he's there giving a course at the same time.

I was looking for some more challenge under canopy but since my DZ closed I started going to a different one. It's surrounded on 3 sides by water and I think some high winds were enough of a challenge for now.

I also asked around about canopy coaching and was met by blank looks.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If I ever make it down to Deland I'll make sure he's there giving a course at the same time.



Scott Miller, as well as other highly qualified canopy coaches, travel around giving courses as well. Since you are interested in pursuing canopy flight, I would highly recommend actively searching out a canopy course rather than waiting for if you ever make it to DeLand. The sooner you can get some canopy coaching, the better off you'll be.

I think Scott's course is fantastic and highly recommend it, but I'd also suggest not just limiting yourself to one person's teachings. Take Brian Germain's course, take Ian Drennan's course, take as many courses and get as much coaching as you can. Everyone is going to teach different things and teach in a different manner.
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I've asked around a lot between Brian Germain's and Scott Miller's canopy courses. Most of the people who have taken both referred me to the latter. If I ever make it down to Deland I'll make sure he's there giving a course at the same time.



Scott's course is more practical. Brian's covers more of the theory behind how canopies fly. You'd learn a lot from either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to say I have learned things from both

and both are pretty willing to talk to you if you have a question and see them around

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just my opinion.

I personally get lost in Brian's Technical Speak, and I consider myself an experienced canopy pilot. Brian is definately geared more towards folks who already understand a good amount about canopies and their performance.

I have only heard Scott Miller speak once, but he brings it down to a level that is easier for most folks to understand and grasp. I think that's important when you are trying to learn something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does Scott Miller have any books or Videos?

I have been asked by my DZ to put together a progression for canopy piloting. I am putting this together with alot of help from a handfull of very good canopy pilots. Maybe I will post it on here when I am done for you guys to attack.

This thread is very typical of what I am seeing around every DZ in my area. A bunch of jumpers under the 500 jump area(many under 300), me included. Learning to swoop without any real training program.

It would be great to see someone come up with some sort of skills grid starting with simple canopy flight up high and progressing to dbl front landings and small carves.

Does anything like this exist?
www.okanaganskydive.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've recently established a progression system in the UK. It's a good start, and there's a manual describing the theory and practical progression exercises here:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/safetydocs/cpmanual.pdf

I'm sure you could adapt something from there.

There's also a more basic set of requirements for canopy handling as a pre-requisite:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/safetydocs/chmanual.pdf

Hope this helps. :)
Richard

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The section on canopy flight in USPA's SIM (check it out here) was written with Scott's input. In fact, section 6-11 contains basically an outline of his basic skills course.

It really bugs me that this information has been available in the SIM for well over a year and yet there are still very few instructors out there teaching it. >:(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0