0
hackish

What do you do before learning to swoop?

Recommended Posts

I'm not anxious to do the hook turn thing but I do wonder what the best approach is to learn high performance landings? I know I've only got 40 odd jumps but I'm consistently landing very close to the target and I need more challenge. Is there a good intermediate step before starting to accelerate the approaches with a little front-riser input?

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Before trying any form of approach where you deliberately accelerate the canopy (double fronts, flare and recover, front riser turns of even small rotations etc etc), you need as a minimum (IMHO):

1) 200 jumps
2) The ability to land consistently on target
3) Able to land cross and downwind
4) Have worked on executing a pattern with defined downwind, base and final legs: so being at a certain point in the sky at a certain time (like 3D accuracy)
5) Understand how your canopy responds to front riser input whilst above 1,000 ft (length of dive - does it dive further and recover positively? What is the maximum height loss for a given turn? Can you do that consistently - same input each time?)
6) How does that change with toggles (e.g. how much you can influence the recovery arc by going onto brakes early)
7) Have been briefed by an experienced canopy pilot on all aspects of safety, preferably through a formalised course (e.g. Wingtips in the UK, Brian Germain's course in the US etc etc)

Doing (7) should make you aware of the others.

The suggestions for canopy exercises (3-6) should be done for the first time only after consultation with an experienced canopy pilot / instructor who knows you first.

Hop n pops, preferably from altitude if you can, will allow you to learn a lot - more working time.

Take it slowly...
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I know I've only got 40 odd jumps but I'm consistently landing very close to the target and I need more challenge.



Easy, Turbo!;)

A few days ago you were jumping a borrowed Sabre 210, so...

"intermediate" step 1: Buy gear:D

On a more serious note... LOTS of crosswind landings, all the way up to 90 degrees in mild to moderate (but not ridiculous) winds. After that, maybe some downwind on very light (0-5) wind days. Make sure you can still be accurate even if you're cross/downwind.

Flat turns, up high first, then lower, while maintaining accuracy. Half-brake approaches, while maintaining accuracy. "flare turns" (approach strait-in, but try to turn at least 45 deg during flare). Rear-riser flare (can drop and switch to brakes at the end so you dont' have to PLF).

After all that stuff (that's a long list... should take many dozens of jumps to do right) maybe some double-front-riser approaches, after you've tried it up high to understand it's effect and the resulting flare.

Take your time, and when you think you're ready, wait another 100 jumps.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All of the stuff they said and also, up high in clear airspace you need to work on using all the control inputs of the canopy. You need to practice grabbing fronts, transitioning from fronts to toggles w/o dropping the toggles and also how to dig out quickly. That would be a quick drop of the fronts to jamming the brakes down.

It is pretty important to be able to do all those things. When you do start working on it you need to also do a lot of double front approaches. They don't seem like they do a whole lot, but they do and they teach a lot of basic skills. You need to spend quite a bit of time considering outs before you start into turns as well. Also learn how to pick an out on the fly.

Furthermore, you are asking this questions pretty prematurely. You aren't even close to read with the jump numbers you have. Make sure you take your time or you WILL get hurt. Get a local mentor to work with at the very least.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Furthermore, you are asking this questions pretty prematurely. You aren't even close to read with the jump numbers you have



I understand what you mean, but I'm going to disagree with you a little:

[to the person asking the original question] It's good to ask. It's perfectly fine to have a "stretch" goal (if you like) providing one understands it may take a lot of effort and time to get achieve...

By asking for, and equally by listening to, suitable advice you'll get there... but it will take a few seasons, not a couple of months - and that's still assuming you put the jumps in!

Right now, there's a bunch of stuff already mentioned in this thread that you should be fully competent in before using techniques to accelerate your landing approach. Well done for asking - but now go away and concentrate on those tasks for the next 150 or so skydives before moving on. :)
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dude.....on another thread you stated that you read Brian Germain's book on canopy control. Was there not enough info and things to get familiar with under canopy, that now you're ready to think about swooping? Forty jumps? Please get GOOD coaching, and take it slow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

on another thread you stated that you read Brian Germain's book on canopy control. Was there not enough info and things to get familiar with under canopy,



No, that's the problem with Germain's book. For someone wanting to simply start out it doesn't break the information down in such a manner in order to learn the tangable skills needed and wanted to progress. It has great information that is needed, just not put out in such a manner that actually helps out young jumpers. That's why I'm not a big fan of the book for a lower time jumper.

To begin swooping you have to have a few things down VERY well.

1. A consistent landing pattern
2. Consistent accuracy irregardless of the winds
3. Know how your canopy reacts in a dive from and how it comes out of a dive on its own as well as on toggles
4. When how and what it feels like when your canopy starts to stall
5. Practice. Swooping takes approximately 1000 jumps to get reasonably good at it.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agreed. Seems a lot of people genuinely seek info here, but some are simply bored, or do not do a search before starting a new thread on a topic already beaten to death.......Then again, it doesn't cost anything, and no harm done, glad he's interested. Still sticking by my "get good coaching" deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brian's book said to start with direct front riser approaches but I wanted to know what pre-requisites needed to be solid before getting to that point. I'm already landing consistently around or on the target (oops it's slippery!) One thing mentioned that I haven't really done was cross wind landings so I'll definitely ask the appropriate people what they think about that idea plus any coaching they can give on it. My season is over in a week or so and I'm just trying to lay out what my objectives for next year will be.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah one of your objectives should be finding a local mentor who is a good teacher :-)

nothing helped me more than someone saying hey try this out cause it will cause this to be better and this is how you go about it

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I am suprised no one has mention this yet....
Get some good medical insurance. The risk of injuring yourself increases dramatically when you start to do high speed landings.
Browse through the Hot swoop x-ray thread to get an idea of what medical costs could be heading you way.



how could I forget my 15000 dollar ankle...

well at least I am on my way to being the 1,000,000 dollar man

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'm already landing consistently around or on the target (oops it's slippery!)



Are you flying a pattern that you planned before boarding the aircraft? That's a very big part of the accuracy needed, because when you start swooping, you'll want to hit a certain point when you're 500ft above the ground. And if you've been sashaying/yanking on toggles, the start of your approach will suck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Normally, yes I fly the planned pattern but my DZ is well known for taking off and when it's time to land have the wind coming from a completely different direction. I'm not consistent enough yet to have my approach perfect every time so sometimes I do need to sashay a bit to eat some altitude.

The thing that often screws me up is the wind layers. I'll be coming down getting very little penetration then all of a sudden poof the lower wind is much lower and suddenly I am set up for overshooting. Being a small DZ there isn't often a lot of traffic but I usually don't need enough correction to screw any of that up.

There is a guy who did compete in accuracy but he's not around very often. Next time I'll have to see if he can watch and criticize.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The thing that often screws me up is the wind layers. I'll be coming down getting very little penetration then all of a sudden poof the lower wind is much lower and suddenly I am set up for overshooting



You know, experienced canopy pilots always seem to have less trouble with this. It'll come with time - keep practising!
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Addie dave flying the biggest canopy parachute in the cpc video!!! that was a funny quote or when the announcer said ok he has got the weight.

Aggie Dave you did awesome at the CPC man. you got skills.

i like to see you on the team extreme jvx.

Just tell jim to call you Mclovin.

Really Dave good job at the cpc.

Taht video was great!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

There is a guy who did compete in accuracy but he's not around very often. Next time I'll have to see if he can watch and criticize.



I don't know much about classic accuracy, but I believe it's fairly different to swoop accuracy. I'd check with someone more knowledgeable than I about whether the techniques you'd learn in classic accuracy would translate well...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

There is a guy who did compete in accuracy but he's not around very often. Next time I'll have to see if he can watch and criticize.



I don't know much about classic accuracy, but I believe it's fairly different to swoop accuracy. I'd check with someone more knowledgeable than I about whether the techniques you'd learn in classic accuracy would translate well...



Apart from requiring awareness of wind conditions, the ability to fly a consistent pattern, and possibility of landing in a sink (following a pop-up and stall in swoop accuracy) there's no similarity between the two.

Glide ratio on a big F111 seven cell is adjustable from somewhat better than 2:1 and straight down (or backwards, but that gets you a high sink rate) especially when you have something soft to crash land on. Classic accuracy is about continuous glide ratio adjustments until you reach the target. It's a slow game - forward speed in 2/3 brakes is about 11 MPH which is gradually reduced to zero.

Swoop accuracy is more about setup to get you in the ball park, turn/dive adjustment to fix problems getting close, and energy management to hit the target. It's a fast game - moderately loaded (by contemporary standards) canopies are going 50+ MPH after plane-out from a 90 degree turn and you've still got a lot of speed if you fly all the way to the ground without popping up to kill your energy,

Swoop accuracy is to skeet as classic accuracy is to high-power rifle.

(I'm undecided whether it's a good idea for bored people on Vicodin to post).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I never thought about swoop versus classic accuracy. Clearly the guy is a classic accuracy guy as I've seen his rig and it's a giant 7 cell that should say "Goodyear" on the side.

I'd love to move somewhere that has an endless summer but the winter will give me an opportunity to save up for a rig and concentrate on other things. Yes they do call me the jump slut here.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I never thought about swoop versus classic accuracy. Clearly the guy is a classic accuracy guy as I've seen his rig and it's a giant 7 cell that should say "Goodyear" on the side.


I prefer to land canopies in flare than sink. You know: it was not a crash just a controlled flight into terrain.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

never thought about swoop versus classic accuracy. Clearly the guy is a classic accuracy guy as I've seen his rig and it's a giant 7 cell that should say "Goodyear" on the side.



There is certainly value in discussing accuracy with an experienced classic accuracy guy, however...

The performance envelope of the "goodyear" parachute:D is probably as different from say, a 210 Sabre1, as the Sabre1 is from a Velo 84. Many techniques used by classic accuracy pilots simply cannot be performed using most other types of canopies.

Again, by all means talk to him, I'm sure he has valuble information to share... just realize that you will have to filter out what is helpful to you and what isn't. Just like you would have to do the same with information from someone who hasn't jumped anything larger than a 107 for 10 years and has forgotten what it's like to be under a WL of less than 1.8:1.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Yes they do call me the jump slut here.


With ~40 jumps? :S


Oh you mean this jumps thing in the profile isn't to document how many jumps you're doing per week? There are a lot of tandems and not that many fun jumpers and as soon as I'm finished packing I'm telling the manifest guy to find me a slot... A good day would be 5 jumps while most regulars only choose to do 2-3.

-Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0