Coming from long spots

[UPS 0]

I've been having some long spots this year cause I've started to do exclusively freefly, so I almost always exit last or just before students since they open higher. Problem his, since I jump a Twin otter and there is rarely under 15 people in it, it's not rare to be far away from the landing zone. It's not that bad, I mean, I had to practice my ''B'' plans a couple of times which gave me a lot of confidence in my landing accuracy, but now I'd like to be able to get to the LZ almost every time if possible.

So that got me thinking, which is better, rears or toggles with wind pushing you to the LZ, and I've heard of fronts if wind is against you?

Thanks

(Sabre2-150 loaded 1.1 if it matters here)

[davelepka 4]

Open higher

[UPS 0]

I already open at 3500' which is kind of high already, but at my Dz they want people to be safe, which I respect.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Since you already open relatively high, your best bet (with the wind at your back on a Sabre2) is deep brakes IMO.

For into the wind full flight is almost always preferable to double fronts in most scenarios.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[klafollette 0]

This isn't an exact science, as each canopy and wing-loading performs differently, but I've found that in a low/moderate tail-wind, some rear riser flattens out the glide, improving distance covered. It's easier to push the rears out to the side, than to pull them down.

In a strong tailwind (15mph+), I find that deep brakes slows the decent rate, allowing the tailwind to push you forward for a longer period of time.

In a strong head wind, tuck up as much as possible to lower your wind resistance, and use front-risers to gain more forward speed.

Your mileage may vary.

[Bolas 5]

Land safe not close. Making it back is nice but "get-home-itis" has killed and seriously injured people.

Although making it back is nice, decide alternates early and keep them open. Sometimes the most direct path back to the DZ is not the safest one as well.

Ex: At my home dz if you are long there is a big forest and a pond you can usually fly directly over to get back to the main landing area. The problem is if you misestimate or winds change you don't have many outs and the ones you have are very small.
However if you fly an arc around you are basically over nice open fields the whole way back.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[UPS 0]

Alraight, I'm gonna try those tips next weekend. I'll get to jump a lot since it will be my Birthday

Edit: Forgot to say thanks!

[AFFI 0]

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Land safe not close. Making it back is nice but "get-home-itis" has killed and seriously injured people.
Although making it back is nice, decide alternates early and keep them open. Sometimes the most direct path back to the DZ is not the safest one as well.
Ex: At my home dz if you are long there is a big forest and a pond you can usually fly directly over to get back to the main landing area. The problem is if you misestimate or winds change you don't have many outs and the ones you have are very small.
However if you fly an arc around you are basically over nice open fields the whole way back.

Great point.

I agree and would stay over good outs rather than sacrificing altitude with double fronts.

If the outs are the opposite direction from the DZ with 100% assurance that those outs are reachable and not at all certain if the main LZ can be reached, which is the better option? Waste altitude on double fronts or turn around and go for the 100%?
I have seen someone loose their life making poor decisions when faced with just such a scenario.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Since you already open relatively high, your best bet (with the wind at your back on a Sabre2) is deep brakes IMO.

For into the wind full flight is almost always preferable to double fronts in most scenarios.

Blues,
Ian

For sure when there is a strong tail wind at your back, deep brakes is your best option. When there is light to no wind, rear risers is often best and of course when flying into a stiff head wind double front if you are not penetrating.

To the OP: make sure you have decided on where you will land by 1000 feet AGL. Many jumpers have been hurt thinking they can make it back.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

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For sure when there is a strong tail wind at your back, deep brakes is your best option. When there is light to no wind, rear risers is often best and of course when flying into a stiff head wind double front if you are not penetrating.

That really depends on the canopy. For those reading this thread I would recommend that they use the "accuracy trick" (the spot that doesn't move on the ground, ask a local instructor if you don't know what I'm talking about) to figure out what works best for your canopy and your wingloading.

Something that has been left out is body position. Body position under canopy can make a HUGE difference, even at a light wingloading. Your bodyposition under canopy does similar things as body position in freefall. Tucking up and getting small can help increase your penetration. Once again, use the accuracy trick to figure out what works best for you in your situation and at your wingloading.

FWIW I've found that with Icarus canopies rear risers worked best and with PD canopies toggles have worked best. That's a generalization and doesn't take into account many different factors. Please do some altitude clear and pulls to work on canopy control and do some drills focusing on this skill. Remember, though, its much more important to land safely and have to walk then to land close and get to ride to the hospital. A long walk might keep you away from one more load that day. A ride to the hospital will keep you away from jumping for a few months, if you live through it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

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I already open at 3500' which is kind of high already, but at my Dz they want people to be safe, which I respect.

If you can't get back from a spot with canopy at 1 to 1, open at 3500 ft, your DZ needs to shorten up the spot.

I also jump at an Otter DZ, and I routinely make it back from 3500' after being out last with the tandems, and I'm loading my canopy at over 2 to 1.

Just to be clear, you're open at 3500ft, not reaching for your PC at 3500 ft., right? With a Sabre 2, throwing your PC at 3500ft would put you in the saddle closer to 3000ft, maybe even a touch under.

[breadhead 0]

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This isn't an exact science

Actually, it is.

Paragliders have had this covered for years already. Look for "polar curve". I don't know why this concept isn't used in skydiving. Our canopies have much more impressive polar curves than paragliders. A polar curve plotting fronts, rears and toggles will predict what controls to use in what wind conditions.

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In a strong head wind, tuck up as much as possible to lower your wind resistance

But also in a strong tail wind you should do so! This is a very common myth. Regardless of whether we are flying upwind or downwind, the airspeed (as felt by our body and canopy) is the same. Tucking up to lower wind resistance is totally a good idea, but not only in the case of strong head winds, also in the case of strong tail winds.

[dharma1976 0]

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This is a very common myth. Regardless of whether we are flying upwind or downwind, the airspeed (as felt by our body and canopy) is the same. Tucking up to lower wind resistance is totally a good idea, but not only in the case of strong head winds, also in the case of strong tail winds. The bike analogy does not apply to skydiving.

ummm drag is drag and a big open flat body creates more drag than a balled up small body

so I will disagree here as I am sure many others will

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[breadhead 0]

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ummm drag is drag and a big open flat body creates more drag than a balled up small body

Totally true.

I'm not arguing that body position influences canopy flight. I'm arguing that it does so in both upwind and downwind conditions.

The drag for a given body position is exactly the same if the canopy is flying upwind or downwind.

A balled up small body makes your canopy fly better. Both upwind and downwind.

Some claim that in upwind conditions you should ball up, and in downwind conditions you should make yourself big open and flat. Not true. For optimal performance, you should ball up in all conditions, regardless of wind direction.

Otherwise swoopers would benefit from wearing a big wide freefly suit for downwind swooping. Not!

[Pendragon 1]

"Breadhead" is right. Don't confuse airspeed with groundspeed.

"Balling up" reduces overall parasitic drag making flight more efficient (in the same way moving to thinner HMA lines or removing bag/slider also helps). Your canopy does not know which way the wind is blowing - or where the ground is for that matter...

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[UPS 0]

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"Breadhead" is right. Don't confuse airspeed with groundspeed.

"Balling up" reduces overall parasitic drag making flight more efficient (in the same way moving to thinner HMA lines or removing bag/slider also helps). Your canopy does not know which way the wind is blowing - or where the ground is for that matter...

Yeah so I'm gonna get a RDS and some HMA lines for my sabre 2 then! Thx for the tips

[dharma1976 0]

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ummm drag is drag and a big open flat body creates more drag than a balled up small body

Totally true.

I'm not arguing that body position influences canopy flight. I'm arguing that it does so in both upwind and downwind conditions.

The drag for a given body position is exactly the same if the canopy is flying upwind or downwind.

A balled up small body makes your canopy fly better. Both upwind and downwind.

Some claim that in upwind conditions you should ball up, and in downwind conditions you should make yourself big open and flat. Not true. For optimal performance, you should ball up in all conditions, regardless of wind direction.

Otherwise swoopers would benefit from wearing a big wide freefly suit for downwind swooping. Not!

and here I would agree fully :-P

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

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Quote

"Breadhead" is right. Don't confuse airspeed with groundspeed.

"Balling up" reduces overall parasitic drag making flight more efficient (in the same way moving to thinner HMA lines or removing bag/slider also helps). Your canopy does not know which way the wind is blowing - or where the ground is for that matter...

Yeah so I'm gonna get a RDS and some HMA lines for my sabre 2 then! Thx for the tips

I got a guy who would totally do that for you



Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Guys,

This is drifting off track - lets try keep to the OP's topic

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skybytch 259]

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For sure when there is a strong tail wind at your back, deep brakes is your best option. When there is light to no wind, rear risers is often best and of course when flying into a stiff head wind double front if you are not penetrating.

And the only way to figure out how much brakes/riser input to give is to go up and play with your canopy. Using the accuracy trick, see how different amounts of brake or riser input affect how much or little penetration you are getting in various wind conditions.

Hot tip for comfort while flying in deep brakes - if your rig has hip rings, hook your thumbs in them. You can harness steer if needed. No more tired arms!

[AFFI 0]

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Hot tip for comfort while flying in deep brakes - if your rig has hip rings, hook your thumbs in them. You can harness steer if needed. No more tired arms!

That is pretty close to stalling the canopy I am flying.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[UPS 0]

When you mean accuracy trick, you mean fixing one point that isnt going upwards or downwards while you fly your canopy which means you will likely land at that precise point using the glide ratio you are using, like when I'm trying to land those Cessna's right on the numbers of the runway on my piloting classes?

And yeah, my harness is fully articulated, thx for that tip
I was also wondering, when you spread toggles/risers on the sides instead of pulling them down, will the canopy react differently?

Thx again

edit: Bad grammar

[AFFI 0]

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When you mean accuracy trick, you mean fixing one point that isnt going upwards or downwards

Ever play baseball? I coached little league for years.
The way you teach a youngster how to catch a pop fly is to watch the ball and if it is moving and looks like it is going over your head, back peddle while watching the ball until the ball appears as if it is no longer moving, that means the ball is coming straight towards you and you are now in the sweet spot to make the catch – and so forth.

In skydiving, you are in the balls position but otherwise it is the same concept. There is a spot on the ground that is moving toward your feet, you will land on the other side of it. A spot that is slowly moving upward and away you will land short of. There is a spot on the ground that does not appear to be moving at all, that is the area you will land in.
As you adjust you mode of flight that spot will move as well.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[rehmwa 2]

My best glide angle (Stiletto 120 at about 1.7)

Ground wind doesn't matter, this is just best glide and penetration - always do
1 - loosen chest strap (improves canopy flight efficiency)
2 - lean a bit forward (looks cool)
3 - body narrow and tucked (decreases drag)

4 ground wind does matter here
a - with a tailwind, half brakes and even more work best (for me) ("even more"? if the uppers are cooking, then the slowest decent rate is very efficient)
b - into a head wind? depends on how fast it's blowing. sometimes nothing works to help - fronts might make you descend faster than the forward speed helps, etc......


we are trying to maximize net glide angle relative to the ground point, not just forward speed - each jump conditions mean we have to assess how to find that 'best' angle. But it's nice to have a general idea what helps so you don't burn time finding it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[klafollette 0]

Good points with using accuracy trick. Also look straight down to gauge your ground speed and track, and don't assume what you're doing at 3000ft will work all the way to the LZ. You need to constantly evaluate how winds aloft are changing. I had one a few weeks ago where the winds were shifting 90 degrees every 1500 feet. After opening high to play around 6000, I had a tailwind, then a cross wind, then a head wind all around 15-25mph. That is a mental and physical workout.

Other things to eek out the most from your canopy is to get the slider down as far as possible. If you have type 17 risers, pull it down past the toggles. If your comfortable trying this, loosen your chest strap so that the lines can spread out and flatten the canopy. This will give it more lift and better glide ratio. Risk is that if you have a malfunction high enough to consider a cut-away, you might need to tighten your chest strap before cutting away. At 80 jumps with a larger canopy, I probably wouldn't try this, talk to your local instructors/riggers about how to safely deal with your slider and chest strap.