Just starting to "swoop"...advice?

[LoudDan 0]

The issue with 180 approaches is that you essentially have to fly over and past your intended target which requires you to take your eyes off of your target.

That said, I believe Ian is correct 180's are both part of "natural" progression and also safer than 270's when practiced in the proper environment (ie. Hop n' Pop where you are either the only one flying or have communicated your intent clearly with other canopy pilots).

As with 90's when properly executed 180's will produce a lot of power, so approach this process with a clear head and a clear plan.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[blindfreddy 0]

Hi,i'm not wanting to put a damper on this conversation but I watched a friend cream in doing a 90o from 250-300 ft on a katana 135 loaded at 1.3, he's now in a coma. I start my 90's from around 600 ft loaded at 1.65. Be careful dude ... take advice from people that are experienced & know how to teach the skills that you need.

[Metekanya 0]

I have been doing 180s nearly since my beginning in skydiving (I come from a paragliding background) and I kept it like that for about 1000 jumps. I loved having everyone else aproaching in front of me and in full sight and being totally predictable for anyone behind me (what else can I do if flying straight downwind at turning altitude?), so in my oppinion it is much safer than a 270 and more accurate because you just fly over your target and turn to it.

What I found over the years is that carving riser turns give more speed and still more reaction time than just snapping one riser, and that training your eyes at the loss of altitude in a turn saves your life. What is the experienced guys oppinion?

[speedy 0]

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I have been doing 180s nearly since my beginning in skydiving .......
I loved having everyone else aproaching in front of me and in full sight and being totally predictable for anyone behind me

You meant that as joke, yes?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[CKSCUBA 0]

yes i recommend dialing in the gears also. ha ha

ill share with you I am not giving advice but sharing how my son and I have done.

build a good foundation and slowly build on that. the basics and the advanced canopy skills and coaching!!!

we started with 45-90 carving front risers not full hard dives but like a carve and get greater speed and then concentrate on the plane out. from there take it real slow dont scare your self don't rush.

my son started doing a toggle carve from say 200 ft like a 90 toggle carve not a whip and planed out.

then he did the riser carve and planed out. then he would do the same thing and plane out on his rears then right to toggles

so even in the beginning he was using his rears. if but briefly then to toggles. so when he went higher and higher slowly and a bit at a time he was using his rears and toggles.

now he does nice 270's and great swoops and he has not injured himself at all either. he progressed as slow and safe. he is so good on his rears.

i did a bunch of coaching and took a while but was on toggles for so long. then i have the hardest time no incorporating rears in my swoops which i do now.

i do a 270 at 750ft and get ok distance but embarrassing using toggles. so relearning the rears is bad i should have built that in at the beginning.

listen to the guys here i am giving a little helpful but i am giving you what happened to us and how we did.

i have seen Ian and aggie dave and others kick ass but also talk and teach and share.

also i think go digital like a viso and have an optima.

I think Ian gave me the best advice and best direction and philosophy. on how to build consistency.

Please listen to these swooper's again i am sharing.

both my son and i never had a crash or have been injured swooping or landing for that matter. Thats my testament in taking it slow and smart.

also practiced a lot up high and i even called out on my video camera how much i lost on a 90 dive a 180 dive and a 270 dive. getting to know my canopy.

i think your sabre2 is a perfect canopy to start with, dont rush downsizing and dont rush to a faster canopy and till your coach says you are. remember resist the temptation to push it because its easy to think your self better then you are and then get into trouble. have the discipline to restrict your self and not rush. dont try to compete with anyone or show off just compete with your self.

i takes eyes and brains to swoop i dont think it takes balls

sorry for the long ramble.

good luck
Chris

[CKSCUBA 0]

oh last thing

i was not a good canopy pilot till 300 jumps. i was never going to swoop it wasnt for me.

it is amazing that i am doing what i am doing now. I was not a natural at it.

My son on the other hand was very good of aff and is a great canopy pilot early on.

So i think swooping can be learned and one can get good at it no matter where they came from or how fast they learned.

it took me longer and i am 40 years old but i am doing ok at it, and have a long way to go.safely!

chris

[Metekanya 0]

***You meant that as joke, yes?

It is not any joke. I was doing 180s with my paraglider before I started skydiving. I was aware that it was not the same, but very soon felt confortable with doing it with the risers. I feel that I have everybody else more in sight when doing a 180. I think that someone hidden from my sight at my back will be less likely to give me problems (or rather I give him/her problems) on my landing. I find the set up much easier than the 270. The only issue is that you do not gain as much speed as with a 270. Am I wrong?

[hparrish 0]

how do you bail out of a 180 without screwing others who my be on their final leg?????

What if you're too low? Do you just land down wind in an opposing direction to others landing?

What if someone else spiraled down and is on level with you before you initiate?

What if a student see's you flying at them and it isn't obvious to them that you plan on snapping a quick 180 before you collide, and they dive into the ground because they don't know how to handle that situation?

180's are Blind, go against most patterns, and leave you committed, with little outs most of the time.

I think they are a bad idea at most DZ's. Bad in the Main landing area and definately bad in the Swooping Lane where others are doing 270's and 360's

[Metekanya 0]

To bail out from a 180 you simply let go of the riser before, and flare turn the rest until the desired direction. It has worked fine whenever it was necessary.

If I am too low I land somewhere else. With a few jumps it is not so difficult to predict how far you will be able to fly before you have to set up for landing.

If someone is on level with me and I have not seen him its because he is directly behind me (one has to look there as well). Then when I do the turn I am down and away from him.

A student could watch me down wind and most surely the rest of the jumpers on the load upwind. Why would he follow me and not the others? What happens if he watches another jumper flying crosswind to do a 270? Is it much better?

I am doing 360s now and I find that a set up for a 270 and a 360 has more blind angles than a 180. Maybe it is only my impression.

[piahenzi 0]

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I am doing 360s now and I find that a set up for a 270 and a 360 has more blind angles than a 180. Maybe it is only my impression.

I think you will find very few canoy pilots who will agree with this point of view...keep an open mind to the responses you have had here.

[hparrish 0]

I wasn't really asking you questions that I don't already have my own answers for........So here's my argument.

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To bail out from a 180 you simply let go of the riser before, and flare turn the rest until the desired direction. It has worked fine whenever it was necessary.

1.) When you Bail from a 180 you are doing one of 3 things. Going straight - Which is bad because now you are landing against traffic pattern. 90 Left or 90 Right - Both are bad because now you are cutting off the traffic pattern on either side. If you are in the swooping area folks are going to have to stay in breaks longer for you to finish. Which may not be possible.

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If I am too low I land somewhere else. With a few jumps it is not so difficult to predict how far you will be able to fly before you have to set up for landing.

2.) So you bail altogher on the 180 prior to setup? If so thats good.

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If someone is on level with me and I have not seen him its because he is directly behind me (one has to look there as well). Then when I do the turn I am down and away from him.

3.) What if they are behind you and initiate their turn to land as well? The most dangerous aspect of a 180 is that behind you is where you are landing. And set up altitude for a 180 is relatively low. So it's not always possible to spot that angle. If you both initiate a turn at the same time.........POW.

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A student could watch me down wind and most surely the rest of the jumpers on the load upwind. Why would he follow me and not the others? What happens if he watches another jumper flying crosswind to do a 270? Is it much better?

4.) Bad question on my part.......assuming you wouldn't bail in congestion.

But low time jumpers could follow your pattern and be the ones setting up next. So long as you advertise you are doing 180's it shouldn't be a problem.

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I am doing 360s now and I find that a set up for a 270 and a 360 has more blind angles than a 180. Maybe it is only my impression.

5.) I couldn't disagree more.........270's are basically the same final leg as a 90'. Plus your set up altitude (850-750 Feet)gives you plenty of time to look above, below, and to every side. Your altitude also gives you outs during the turn.

360's are basically the same direction you will be landing in. Again setup altitude (1000 to 850 Feet) gives you more of spotting advantages than the 270.

180's on the other hand, have you landing behind your initiation point. Your setup altitude is considerabley lower (500 - 400 feet) and gives you litttl to no time to spot someone who may surprise you. A 180 is the MOST BLIND turn you can make.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Nice, but unreadable.....

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Nice, but unreadable.....

Fixed it for ya

Performance Designs Factory Team

[superstu 0]

you two realize you're talking about two different variable's right? i mean you're talking about the proper way to progress through the swooping stages but at the same time talking about what turn is better to do in traffic/ which has less blind spots.

the fact of the matter is every turn including straight in approaches has blind spots, but if you're doing a HP landing in the middle of traffic then you're just plane taking your life and OTHERS lives in your hands. learning to swoop should be done, as stated by others in previous posts, either on hop n pop's or high pulls where the least amount of canopy traffic/ distractions are prevalent.

that being said i personally think 180's are an integral part of learning to do "bigger turns" (ie 270+) because when you do a 270, 450, 630, 810, you're still going to do a 180 at some point. 180's also help you learn how to cope with the disorientation involved with the bigger turns and help you recognize where those blind spots are. not to mention the fact that jumping from a 90 starting around 400ish feet to a 270 that typically starts 300+ feet higher is an enormous jump. lastly, the question was asked "how do you bail from a 180?" the answer is simple, let up on the fronts and get back in the landing pattern with everyone else or if you're low stab those yellow things called toggles.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Metekanya 0]

I think hparrish is quite right in his statements and I am not going to discuss them, but MY experience asks me to send a couple of comments.

Truly the altitude required for a 360 gives you more field of vision, but even when I always land at the edge of the landing area to avoid congestion I find now that many other jumpers, because they do not see me (I am much higher) they fly their patern directly under me, or behind me or close at the sides below me while I am preparing my set up. I have in the last time had to bail from several 360s because of this, while in years of doing 180s I hardly ever had to bail. You see, being in front of everyone else and only a bit higher made me visible to everyone and I then had my "space" in the air. Someone behind me about to do same thing would have me perfectly in sight and would move to a side. Now with 360s I am more nervous about what is happening "down there" than I was before.

I am not saying that 180s are better than 270s, but just that I do not find them to be so, so, so dangerous compared to 270s, and as they are a logical progression, I do not think anyone should go from 90s to 270s because of thinking that 180s are suicidal maneuvers.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I do not think anyone should go from 90s to 270s because of thinking that 180s are suicidal maneuvers.

Or just harder to master, because of the running-crab setup.

[LoudDan 0]

I can't truly see the wisdom of assuming that the person that you can't see can see you, and to a further point personally I would not trust that someone behind me would have the presence of mind or the reaction time to move so that I could perform a maneuvre. Additionally that's kind of putting undo stress on the people following you as you are forcing them to react to you as you said "they would see me and move to the side" and assuming they will react correctly, as apposed to allowing them to follow a smooth traffic pattern..

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[Metekanya 0]

Shoul I then assume that by preparing for a 270 there will hardly be any risk of having someone behind you (or behind and below, which is worse) that could be bothered or caught by surprise? Why is this risk higher while preparing for a 180? My intention is not to insist, but to be wiser.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I wasn't really asking you questions that I don't already have my own answers for........So here's my argument.

In Reply To
To bail out from a 180 you simply let go of the riser before, and flare turn the rest until the desired direction. It has worked fine whenever it was necessary.

1.) When you Bail from a 180 you are doing one of 3 things. Going straight - Which is bad because now you are landing against traffic pattern. 90 Left or 90 Right - Both are bad because now you are cutting off the traffic pattern on either side. If you are in the swooping area folks are going to have to stay in breaks longer for you to finish. Which may not be possible.

Bail out in what phase? 0-90 degrees?
Before init? Come on! You should be able to do a flat turn into the final direction or you should not have any business with doing a front riser 180.

In final 90 degrees ? You can still digg it out and turn to final with flat or flare turn.

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But low time jumpers could follow your pattern and be the ones setting up next. So long as you advertise you are doing 180's it shouldn't be a problem.

If they have some dubt they have a problem. They should know how to land without any help, example or radio.

Low timers usually do not clear pattern for landing. Do they care about us?