Tandem canopies have the right of way in all situations?

[CrazyL 0]

Safety note on having to fly near tandems.While at a busy dz in NY last summer a crossbraced canopy flew through the burble of a tandem below 2000ft. Crossbraced canopy did a wicked wierd collapsing flinging the jumper thing. Jumper cutaway and pulled reserve and walked away. Not only do not get into a dogfight with a tandem but the tandem burble as well. Had this highly experienced jumper had the same issue lower, which is'nt that hard to do, he'd have less time to survive the altercation with the tandem burble. Giv'em space and time!

[davelepka 4]

How about we expand that to include any canopy, and obstacles on the ground as well.

Give your canopy clear air to fly in. It's the least you could do for the thing, it's saving your life.

[BillyVance 34]

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Thankyou for the replies so far.
It wasn't an isolated incident it happens alot with the same TI's.
It happens alot if a sporty or camera man has a deap spot and has to go on deap brakes to make it back. Also quite often the last camera man or woman has problems setting up because the TI will just spiral down and interupt the pattern.
I know tandems are hard to set up with but it's not an issue of difficulty, these instructors have 10,000+ tandems, all they fly is tandems, so it is not hard for them to set up, their accuracy is on the money.
It seems to us that it's a matter of, ''we have more jumps, so we can do what we want and you can not question us.''

It doesn't matter how many jumps they have. If they're spiralling tandems below 2000 feet, they are idiots. Now if it was a bad spot with questionable winds, and they had to do that to make sure they made a safe landing area, that would be understandable.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[CrazyL 0]

such as obstacle turbulence on windy days? For some reason/s i've survived many wicked circumstances in skydiving. Something about 'keeping your head on a swivel', 'spacial awareness' , 'obstacle turbulence awareness' , understanding how to 'fit in' with canopy traffic, understanding the wing and how it performs prior to performing tricks upon landing. My strategy seems to work well. There are a few key observations I have every load. How many jumpers, size of dives, canopies, pull height, line of flight, and more. As I am constantly collecting this 'survival data' on the load, in freefall at breakoff especially, under canopy. The closer I become to the ground the more critical it is for me to be prepared. How can I share good strategy with others? I expect jumpers to pull lower than they say prior to the jump, I expect big canopies to spiral down into the faster canopy traffic, I expect traffic to be congested at times and for me to occasionally be in the middle of the traffic.There is a pluthera of scenarios to reduce my chances of having the airspace to do my hookturn fun landing approach. I'm scared, I look around and take inventory of traffic and airspace, i'm checking wind indicators understanding where burbles from obstacles will be and also avoid taking out others at all cost. I have outs. My prior planning for airspace reduces others risk , so that I can increase my own risk for my own pleasure as I dive my canopy at the earth at high rates of speed. Many more parts go into the equation for my hookturn landing than just a simple degree of turn. Many skydivers observe from the ground, when someone does something hazardous someone will usually attempt to educate the hazardous jumper. Some get pissed, some let ego stand in the way, some appreciate the education. Occasionally on the airplane a newbie solo will be going out after me, i'm scared, so I attempt to share info with them so that they don't kill me or them due to lack of separation. I expect people to be idiots out there, maybe that's part of why i've survived so far.

[davelepka 4]

Yeah, that all sounds about right.

Anyone who does not have that mindset needs to start wokring on developing it ASAP. It's not easy, and if it ever gets easy, you're not trying hard enough.

[jee 0]

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FAA rules state:
When aircraft of different categories are converging, the less maneuverable aircraft has the right of way. We all know that tandems are less maneuverable, so this blanket rule does protect them.

Bingo.

Bingo what?? You're way off on this.
This blanket rule DOES NOT PROTECT THEM.
Since when is a tandem canopy in a different category than a sport canopy according to the FAA? That's like saying a Cessna 172 has the right of way over a Pitts S2B. The Pitts is much more maneuveralbe but this rule doesn't apply because they are both the same category aircraft. They are both airplanes as opposed to rotorcraft, glider or lighter than air.
The rules that might apply, since we would all be of the same "catagory", are: converging at the same altitude the aircraft to the right has the right of way. Also, if being overtaken from behind the aircraft being overtaken has the right away. An aircraft in distress has the right of way over all other aircraft regardless. An aircraft on final to land has the right of way as well. However, I don't think that any of these FAR's apply to parachute canopy flight. I don't remember where a parachute is included in any category.
There is however a certain "right" though that i believe tandems should have. They should be given all the room they need. There is no reason to even be close to a tandem. On top of actually getting the passenger to the ground safely they could also potentially be dealing with distractions such as an uncomfortable passenger amongst others. The last thing they need is to worry about a sub 100 swooper taking them out. Or any other canopy for that matter.
It has nothing to do with how "maneuverable" one canopy is over another. It's about turning your brain on.

Just my opinion..but what do I know? I have less then 300 jumps therefore I have no "experience".

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The indisputible rules of the road/air/water are that the least maneuverable vessel ALWAYS has the right of way. Experienced skydivers must ALWAYS yield to tandems and students. There are positively no exceptions. Seriously.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, TM/SL/AFF-I, PRO, S&TA, and a formerly exceptional pro swooper who is now old.

[CrazyL 0]

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The indisputible rules of the road/air/water are that the least maneuverable vessel ALWAYS has the right of way. Experienced skydivers must ALWAYS yield to tandems and students. There are positively no exceptions. Seriously.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, TM/SL/AFF-I, PRO, S&TA, and a formerly exceptional pro swooper who is now old.

Can this post be a cardinal rule? I'm with you 110%.

[freeflyn 0]

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The indisputible rules of the road/air/water are that the least maneuverable vessel ALWAYS has the right of way. Experienced skydivers must ALWAYS yield to tandems and students. There are positively no exceptions. Seriously.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, TM/SL/AFF-I, PRO, S&TA, and a formerly exceptional pro swooper who is now old.
Can this post be a cardinal rule? I'm with you 110%.

I always thought it was......

[CrazyL 0]

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The indisputible rules of the road/air/water are that the least maneuverable vessel ALWAYS has the right of way. Experienced skydivers must ALWAYS yield to tandems and students. There are positively no exceptions. Seriously.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, TM/SL/AFF-I, PRO, S&TA, and a formerly exceptional pro swooper who is now old.
Can this post be a cardinal rule? I'm with you 110%.

I always thought it was......

ya, homie up there at the top of this thread ought to read and heed bro!

[jee 0]

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The indisputible rules of the road/air/water are that the least maneuverable vessel ALWAYS has the right of way. Experienced skydivers must ALWAYS yield to tandems and students. There are positively no exceptions. Seriously.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, TM/SL/AFF-I, PRO, S&TA, and a formerly exceptional pro swooper who is now old.

I don't think too many people on land, air or water would argue this. I am for this type of rule 100%. And anybody who's not should reconsider jumping from a plane. However, nowhere is this a written FAR pertaining specifically to parachute canopy flight.
It's just common sense.

[riggerrob 558]

I vote with Chuck on this.

Secondly, I believe that any TI - who spirals below 1,000 feet - is an idiot.

Thirdly, I believe that swoop lanes should be moved well off to the side of the normal tandem landing field.

[CrazyL 0]

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I vote with Chuck on this.

Secondly, I believe that any TI - who spirals below 1,000 feet - is an idiot.

Thirdly, I believe that swoop lanes should be moved well off to the side of the normal tandem landing field.

About thirdly: Not all dz's have the space + several cameraman for the school are swoopers and land in the same area as the TI's to get the video completed. Swooping areas should ideally have their own ground and airspace.

[dploi 0]

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I'd almost think it was near impossible for a tandem to overtake a sub 100 foot canopy unless the TI was still in drouge fall.

Don't forget about high pulls and wingsuit flights. This almost all I do, and am generally passing tandems vertically (quite a ways away horizontally) at about 3k.

[dploi 0]

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However, nowhere is this a written FAR pertaining specifically to parachute canopy flight.
It's just common sense.

It's up to the DZ, but have you ever heard of a DZ that didn't give tandems the right of way?

[DJL 232]

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because the TI will just spiral down and interupt the pattern.

I think this is the main problem. Your tandems should be establishing and flying their pattern. Where does this opinion of their's end? Can they land opposite to the traffic pattern into an oncoming crowd of upjumpers? If they're spiraling down into the pattern then it's not just a TM vs fun jumper issue, they could be screwing each other also. Growing up a sailor, I always put issues of right-of-way things into terms of the nautical rules of the road; the oldest and most internationally consistent form of right-of-way and is what aeronautical right-of-way is based upon. The least maneuverable vessel gets the right of way but it is their responsibility to maintain course and speed. Your TM's should quit with their antics and establish their pattern well before the time that their actions push someone away from their chosen landing spot.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jee 0]

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because the TI will just spiral down and interupt the pattern.

I think this is the main problem. Your tandems should be establishing and flying their pattern. Where does this opinion of their's end? Can they land opposite to the traffic pattern into an oncoming crowd of upjumpers? If they're spiraling down into the pattern then it's not just a TM vs fun jumper issue, they could be screwing each other also. Growing up a sailor, I always put issues of right-of-way things into terms of the nautical rules of the road; the oldest and most internationally consistent form of right-of-way and is what aeronautical right-of-way is based upon. The least maneuverable vessel gets the right of way but it is their responsibility to maintain course and speed. Your TM's should quit with their antics and establish their pattern well before the time that their actions push someone away from their chosen landing spot.

there ya go....well said.

[CrazyL 0]

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because the TI will just spiral down and interupt the pattern.

I think this is the main problem. Your tandems should be establishing and flying their pattern. Where does this opinion of their's end? Can they land opposite to the traffic pattern into an oncoming crowd of upjumpers? If they're spiraling down into the pattern then it's not just a TM vs fun jumper issue, they could be screwing each other also. Growing up a sailor, I always put issues of right-of-way things into terms of the nautical rules of the road; the oldest and most internationally consistent form of right-of-way and is what aeronautical right-of-way is based upon. The least maneuverable vessel gets the right of way but it is their responsibility to maintain course and speed. Your TM's should quit with their antics and establish their pattern well before the time that their actions push someone away from their chosen landing spot.

there ya go....well said.

Agreed.

[stevomooo 0]

I think this is the main problem. Your tandems should be establishing and flying their pattern. Where does this opinion of their's end? Can they land opposite to the traffic pattern into an oncoming crowd of upjumpers? If they're spiraling down into the pattern then it's not just a TM vs fun jumper issue, they could be screwing each other also.


This hits the nail on the head. Most of the TI's at the DZ are awsome, considerate and always looking out for each other. But like I said in the original post it is just a couple of TI's that interupt the patterns, and yes your right they do have issue when stacking with other tandems.
It's also funny you should ''can they land in opposite direction to the traffic because of their opinions.'' This happened with one of the TI's on a fun jump when he was flying his sport parachute, spiraled into trafic and landed across the pattern which is almost worse.
But like I said in the original post, knowone can question this because in their eyes, they have done it longer, they know right.

[jee 0]

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But like I said in the original post, knowone can question this because in their eyes, they have done it longer, they know right.

hmmmmmmm...makes ya think.

[kallend 1,623]

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FAA rules state:
When aircraft of different categories are converging, the less maneuverable aircraft has the right of way. We all know that tandems are less maneuverable, so this blanket rule does protect them.

Bingo.

But parachutes are not aircraft. If they were, we would have to obey more FARs than we already do. It was established by the courts in a case concerning base jumping in a national recreation area that parachutes are not aircraft (which is what the defense had claimed). See "USA vs Albers" for the decision.

It is a good idea and common courtesy too, and I certainly yield RoW to tandems, but I don't see that it's a RULE.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diablopilot 2]

That's too bad.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jee 0]

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That's too bad.

i'll agree with you on that JP!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

All of us that work at busy dropzones know people that hum tandems down to the legal pull altitude, then spiral down to land. I simply don't get it. Why in the world would you want to pull down in AFF traffic, then have to weave your way around them? Likewise, I don't get it when the heaviest tandem load does not exit first (among tandems). If every TI opens at the same altitude, the heaviest pair will always land first (unless there are some toggle-whipping morons intent on landing first). Whatever. Set an SOP. Set the exit order as heaviest to lightest (regardless of video). Call your landing spot (if there is wind and you need shagging). Don't hook-turn your tandem. If you ARE in the same airspace as AFF students, then steer your ass away! Don't expect them to know any better even though the rules of the air/road/sea dictate that you (as the TM) have the right of way. Keep your head on a swivell. Etc, etc, etc.

Chuck