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stevomooo

Tandem canopies have the right of way in all situations?

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Hi everyone.
Ok so I jump at quite a busy commercial dz.
We have had a couple of situations lately with tandem canopies landing the same time as sport canopies. No accidents and no close calls, but it is a dz with some tandem masters with 10,000+ jumps, not a whole lot of canopy skill but alot of pride that they feal they need to throw around.
The other day a tandem spiralled down below the small sub 100 sport canopy close to the ground forcing the sport jumper to land at the same time. Well, shit hit the fan, we had a meeting where we were told that tandems have the right away in ALL situations, no exeptions....
This seems a little crazy to us, so we wanted post this to get the opinions of some of you guys with alot of experience.

Thanks, keep it safe

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If you can't manuver around a tandem canopy, then you need to be landing well clear of everyone, off in the outer edges of the landing area.

Additionally, the low canopy has the right of way. If this is due to spiraling, then so be it, but the rule still applies. Along the same lines as my first comment, I'm not sure how a tandem could 'over power' a sub 100 canopy, and spiral down below them.

Most canopies loaded at 2.0 or above will come down faster in straight full flight than a tandem will with enough spirals to make the pax puke.

One last point, you said it's a busy commercial DZ, and lets face it, money talks and the tandems paid way more than the fun jumpers. If the management was going to side with anyone, it would be tandems mules, becasue they haul the most cash, and at this point in time sub 100 swoopers are the current 'bad guys' on the DZ.

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tandem masters with 10,000+ jumps, not a whole lot of canopy skill



I'm going to take it that you're not a TI. Try being accurate and safe with someone on the front of you while you teach them the basics of canopy flight. This is on a jump where the canopy's wingloading is different every single jump. You just got done on a jump with a chick that ways 95lbs then you're on a back to back with a guy that weighs 200lbs. That's a big deal. Those guys have some canopy skill, its just a different skill set then what you consider to be important.

As a TI and a swooper I do my best in both aspects to land respectfully of others. As a TI there are no spirals below roughly 2000ft. Last out (or near last) out of the plane and opening at a minimum of 4,500ft typically the only canopy traffic there is concern with are low time jumpers and students. Everyone else is well out of the way. As for a camera flier, they're working. If they have a clear shot and get to swoop, great, if not, its a working jump not a swoop hop-n-pop.

It takes education and respect of others in the air from all the parties involved to have a safe dropzone. Blaming a single group accomplishes absolutely nothing. Working as a group with that understanding, then that will help further education and safety.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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As a TI I try to create seperation between myself and the other canopies, and just about the only time I've had difficulty doing so is multi jumpsip opperations, or high pullers.

As a high performance canopy pilot, I'll always give tandems a wide berth, as they are at more of a challenge to manuver and spot unexpected traffic.

As for tandems having the right of way, I believe that to be true. It is every skydivers duty to give tandems a wide berth, for the reasons listed above, just as an AFF/SL/IAD student would have right of way.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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The problem with rules like this i.e. differing rules for differing people is that accidents are likley to happen from it.

I work moving large heavy machinery around in the dark in ports etc (mostly containers).

We have a "one rule for all" policy so that if I expect all big igs to turn right and reverse under the crain I am directing then they all do that.

Some guy just shunt round the yard and wanted to go the wrong way round the one way system as it was quicker.

This was just going to lead to problems as I would then be dealing with vehicles from 2 directions.

It stayed as it was...safe.


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Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

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I agree. Tandems are high liability and difficult to maneuver and therefore should be given trhe "right of way". However, the original post also states that the tandem spiraled down into HP traffic. That should be a seperate issue in need of address.

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The other day a tandem spiralled down below the small sub 100 sport canopy close to the ground forcing the sport jumper to land at the same time. Well, shit hit the fan, we had a meeting where we were told that tandems have the right away in ALL situations, no exeptions....



Why would a tandem spiral down past the "sub 100" canopies???? Maybe a better question should be how could it?? Did he open low?? Did the "sub 100" canopies open high?? You mentioned a commerical operation and I guess it coulde ahve been a different load?? I guess more info needs to be gven if you want to get a good response.

Scott C.

I am curious both as a jumper that likes to swoop and a TI
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Thankyou for the replies so far.
It wasn't an isolated incident it happens alot with the same TI's.
It happens alot if a sporty or camera man has a deap spot and has to go on deap brakes to make it back. Also quite often the last camera man or woman has problems setting up because the TI will just spiral down and interupt the pattern.
I know tandems are hard to set up with but it's not an issue of difficulty, these instructors have 10,000+ tandems, all they fly is tandems, so it is not hard for them to set up, their accuracy is on the money.
It seems to us that it's a matter of, ''we have more jumps, so we can do what we want and you can not question us.''

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FAA rules state:
When aircraft of different categories are converging, the less maneuverable aircraft has the right of way. We all know that tandems are less maneuverable, so this blanket rule does protect them.

I too jump at a large commercial dz and we had a problem with the tandems flying over the pond a couple of years ago. However, after talking with the school, all the TIs stayed clear of the pond. I know no one wants to hear it but....separate landing areas would resolve your situation.[:/]

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FAA rules state:
When aircraft of different categories are converging, the less maneuverable aircraft has the right of way. We all know that tandems are less maneuverable, so this blanket rule does protect them.



Bingo.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I was jumping in the desert DZ one day flying my WS and the pattern was east the west and I was setting up for it and almost on my final here comes Tandam from the west to south-east, I land it on the other field close by, all the other DZ the I jump they all land in same patten including tandem except for this place
"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..."

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these instructors have 10,000+ tandems, all they fly is tandems, so it is not hard for them to set up, their accuracy is on the money.



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tandem masters with 10,000+ jumps, not a whole lot of canopy skill



You sound biased. They either have canopy control skill or don't.

For the same reasons you wouldn't make a student avoid you, you should assume responsibility for avoiding tandems and remaining clear of them. A sub 100sq ft canopy should have zero problems remaining clear of tandems.

Derek

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The other day a tandem spiralled down below the small sub 100 sport canopy close to the ground forcing the sport jumper to land at the same time. Well, shit hit the fan, we had a meeting where we were told that tandems have the right away in ALL situations, no exeptions....



Tandems always have the right of way, even if the TM is flying like a jerk. There's an innocent passenger on board.

If you're flying a sub 100sqft canopy, you can easily get out of the way, and if your awareness is good, you should be able to do it early enough to still enjoy your landing.

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If you're flying a sub 100sqft canopy, you can easily get out of the way, and if your awareness is good, you should be able to do it early enough to still enjoy your landing.

Add to that, if you're having difficulty navigating your HP canopy in traffic, you might need to rethink what's over your head. Or at least steer WAY clear of traffic until you're more comfortable. An HP canopy is far easier to move out of harm's way than a tandem canopy, so long as you have some clue as to how to control it.

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Hi there Stevomooo, nice name haha.
At my DZ we have had the same situation, and yeah it can be frustrating when you can't swoop because a tandem spirals down, but like everyone here has said tandems do technically have the right of way, I think it's more of a courtesy thing for the tandem to wait for the faster canopies but they don't have to, you know.
It's not the end of the world if you miss a swoop, even if it might feel like it at the time :)

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As a TI I have never...NEVER...been in danger of cutting off a fun jumper or swooper from the same load. I'd almost think it was near impossible for a tandem to overtake a sub 100 foot canopy unless the TI was still in drouge fall.

However, Tandems have right of way....period. As a jumper with a HP canopy I better be able to land it safely and away from other traffic. Otherwise I'm a danger to any students, low time jumpers or fellow jumpers with larger more docile canopies.

Larger canopies make cut into the pattern short on a windy day as they don't get the same penetration as a smaller canopy.
JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

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I promise it is not impossible to overtake a 100 sqft canopy with a tandem. You can make the HOP and Icarus canopies sing. I personally believe as a TI and a competitive canopy pilot that while the right of way should be yielded to the tandem if such a situation exists, however it is the responsibility of the TI to not be an asshole and "push" through a pattern or "try" to beat a sport canopy to the final turn point. We are carrying another human being and have no right to put their lives in peril regardless of what you "THINK" your local waiver protects you from.

Also you have to be careful with how FAR's are interpretted, I hardly think that a Sabre II 230 with a 1 to 1 wingloading is more manueverable than a HOP or a Icarus Tandem 330 @1.5. In this case I would have the right of way as the Tandem sure, but as the more experienced canopy pilot and a TI if I have to hold brakes so the new solo student can land safely then thats the way it goes.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

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Yeah that is how we feal too that it is a matter of looking out for each other, but the dz I jump at isn't really about that if the TI is right according to the book then thats the way it is. It's good to know now that tandems do have right of way though.
And yeah if the 1st tandem out on the run starts spiriling straight away after opening then yeah they can easily beat down the last sport canopy on the load, especially if it's a windy day with loads of seperation. And if the tandem has no camera I'm sure the TI takes the opening hight way down too which doesn't help anything.
Cheers everyone for clearing it up for us.
Blue ones

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Tandems have the right of way for sure. Do you know why the tandems spiral down? My best guess is to make the next load, to keep the wheels turning. May not be the perfect scenario, but one that works. At several dz's tandems are the backbone, the bread and butter of a dz. Heard of 'tandem factory'. I go fast under my sub 100 canopy and seldom but occasionaly abort my 'trick' for other jumpers, tandems too, for all our safety. Is your scenario as far as jump order and pull time similar each jump? If so then similar scenario's will occur like tandem traffic. You can find 'your' airspace up there to do your landing pattern and swoop. Some TI's are buttheads too and try to be and some times win at being a butthead, you still cannot run into them or fly through them they still have the right of way. 'Nuff said.

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I promise it is not impossible to overtake a 100 sqft canopy with a tandem. You can make the HOP and Icarus canopies sing. I personally believe as a TI and a competitive canopy pilot that while the right of way should be yielded to the tandem if such a situation exists, however it is the responsibility of the TI to not be an asshole and "push" through a pattern or "try" to beat a sport canopy to the final turn point. We are carrying another human being and have no right to put their lives in peril regardless of what you "THINK" your local waiver protects you from.

Also you have to be careful with how FAR's are interpretted, I hardly think that a Sabre II 230 with a 1 to 1 wingloading is more manueverable than a HOP or a Icarus Tandem 330 @1.5. In this case I would have the right of way as the Tandem sure, but as the more experienced canopy pilot and a TI if I have to hold brakes so the new solo student can land safely then thats the way it goes.



I agree with you 100%. I truly do. Every situation has its own unique qualities.

However the normal chances of a Tandem, exiting last and pulling at 4500 to 5000 is giving all the sport canopies a pretty fair head start.

Should the TI be looking for traffic...of course. I have had to look out for an AFF student on a few occassions and give them wide berth. But I'd be pretty upset it I was flying a Tandem and a swooper engaged me in a dogfight for landing position.

Reverse the situation and if I was free and clear setting up for my swoop and a Tandem suddenly spiraled in front of me I'd probably be pretty upset as well.

Could the TI be an irresponsible dickhead and take horrible risks with his student..yes. Could you spiral a student down from opening to final? Yes...but not normally unless you have a passion for puke. But I'd wager to say 99.9% of the time these are not the circumstances.

Bottom line here is common sense and courtesy apply. I also agree that at any busy DZ rules should be established and adhered to. Seperate landing areas, no turns over over so many degrees...whatever plan works....but work the plan.

Ultimately we are responsible for our actions and we have to share the same airspace. The sport has enough risks without having to induce them on each other. Death or injury under a perfectly good canopy is just a bad idea. Peace.
JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

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if I was free and clear setting up for my swoop and a Tandem suddenly spiraled in front of me I'd probably be pretty upset as well.



I'll repeat, the only thing a tandem canopy can do suddenly is collapse, or be cut-away.

For that matter, the only way anyone can spiral down in front of you is if you let them. There are a limited number of canopies out there, and if you can't manage to keep track of them, and sequence yourself in, then you have no business swooping on an everyday skydive.

Do hop n pops or high pulls until your swooping skills are such that you can devote your attention to traffic managment during your canopy ride, and start to think about your swoop as you reach for your riser.

Not directed at JJ, but more of a general statement.

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For that matter, the only way anyone can spiral down in front of you is if you let them. There are a limited number of canopies out there, and if you can't manage to keep track of them, and sequence yourself in, then you have no business swooping on an everyday skydive.



Exactly.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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One thing that sticks out on the original post is that he says the tandem spiraled down in front of the small canopy close to the ground.....Tis needs alot more definition. 1) No TI I know is going to be spiraling that low to the ground to pose a problem to another canopy...which is obvious as the other canopy had time to find a suitable out....as the original post also states no close calls....whole things sounds a bit like an ego contest to begin with.
JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

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as the original post also states no close calls....whole things sounds a bit like an ego contest to begin with.

Sounds like it! I aborted my hookturn fun 2 sundays ago due to going out last on wingsuit dive after tandems resulting in flying amongst tandems on the way back to the lz. As a tandem turned onto final into the 'shared' swoop/tandem landing area below me as I was setting up. It was easy for me to turn 90 (staying higher than tandem)onto final rather than 270 (which would put us all in danger) then flying a higher path and landing far out in front and to the side of the tandem. Everyone was happy to see such a move. No ego needed to still have fun aborting a landing for the tandem. I made time to find a suitable out.

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