MagicGuy 0 #1 July 12, 2007 After taking both the beginner and advanced Scott Miller canopy courses and doing high pulls on 1 out of 3 jumps, I've recently started to learn how to swoop. I had been coming in on double front risers for maybe.. 30 or so jumps and a couple weekends ago I switched over to doing 90 degree front riser turns onto final. The difference between coming in on double fronts and coming in with a 90 degree front riser turn is drastically different and the results I have been getting are pretty sweet. I'm doing my turn fairly high.. about 250 feet, and coming out of the turn on double fronts to keep my speed and heading. I've been jumping a Pilot 150, loaded right at 1:1. Previously I had jumped a Sabre 150, Sabre2 150, and my other rig has a Triathlon 160 (ewww). I also have a Hornet 135 that I've only jumped 4 times due to needing new brake lines, and some folks not agreeing with me being on a 135 (WL, 1.1:1) I'm having fun with the Pilot 150, but there are some things that I really don't like about it as well. The recovery arc on the Pilot is almost instanteous. As soon as I let up on the front risers, I'm planing out. The first half of my flare is basically letting up on the fronts. This isn't the most ideal situation.. I feel like I'm in the corner every time I come in, but in order to get any kind of a swoop, I have to hold the fronts until I'm pretty low. The fact that I load the Pilot at 1:1 is also something that isn't very ideal for me. I've been doing so many high pulls lately, really trying to squeeze what I can out of this thing. In order to keep up with my buddies, they have to be in pretty deep brakes, and I have to be on my front risers a LOT. About a month ago a friend and myself got a bit complacent.. we were bumping end cells and flying relative and we realized we were a good distance away from the DZ. We were at 7 grand. We both turned back towards the dz, he immediately started heading back but I was basically coming straight down. There was a decent headwind, and even though I had my chest strap loosened all the way and was on my rear risers to try and keep a clean airfoil and a flat glide, I didn't move until about 2,000 feet. He's on a Katana loaded at probably.. 1.6ish. Of course he's going to get a better penetration than myself. I'm not looking to drastically load a canopy, but I also want to have a clear mind knowing that I'll have an easier time getting back from a long spot when I have a headwind. The light wingloading is also holding me back from getting any kind of swoop even if there is a little bit of wind. I get the best swoops early in the day and later in the day when the wind dies down. It's basically meaningless for me to come in with a 90 when there's any wind because I don't get anything out of it. However, I keep my turn and set up the same for consistency purposes. Canopy flight has become my main focus in skydiving. I've gotten to the point where I want to go up and pull high on every jump, or if I am in a formation or something, I want to break off higher so I have more time to fly my canopy. I know that there are many opinions on what kind of progress one should have with canopies. I'm just looking for a broad range of suggestions on what I can do to maximize my swoop under the current circumstances, and what would be a good choice for a next canopy so I can continue my progression, both safely and effectively. I'd love to get a Crossfire 2 or a Katana, but I'm also not looking to load a canopy at 1.4 or higher, which is what both manufacturers recommend as a minimum WL on these canopies. Thanks guys.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #2 July 12, 2007 I learned to swoop on a sabre2 170 loaded at about 1.2 I would also recommend a safire2 around the same loading... it worked well for me... get in touch with PD get a demo http://performancedesigns.com/demo_sport.asp or from chicago for icarus http://para-concepts.com/Store/product_info.php?cPath=30_33&products_id=70 Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #3 July 12, 2007 So are you saying that it's the canopy or the WL that will make the difference? I didn't notice much of a difference between the recovery arc of a Sabre 2 versus the Pilot. I have heard that the Safire 2 has a longer recovery arc. That might be a good option. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #4 July 12, 2007 I noticed a huge difference between the pilot 150 and the sabre2 150... the pilot pretty much came out of the dive instantaneously unless I really hammered on the turn and eventually hammered myself into the ground trying to figure out how to keep that from happening... that being said I noticed that the pilot had a very positive recovery arc...the sabre 2 I could let it fly before adding input to come out of my turn. If I were to choose between the three I would choose either sabre2 or safire. If I were to choose between the sabre2 and safire at this point I would choose the safire 2 due to openings and slow flight charecteristics... No back to your original question...you said crossfire or katana...I would steer away from those for now... I got my crossfire at about 500 jumps...the gains would be nominal at best underloading the canopy... I say this over and over all the time to people... I learned to swoop on a sabre2 170 Spend your time learn each canopy wring them out as much as possible... Do not under any circumstances think that downsizing is the magical answer to your problems... Perhaps Planform..(canopy type) will help more... and most of all get a mentor to help you with your progression I was lucky to have had and still have some great mentors taht helped me learn and stay alive... Cheers to them and you Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #5 July 12, 2007 Cant help promoting the original Safire. One of my mentors was still jumping a Safire @ almot 5000 jumps experience{full time cameraman}watching what he could do with that thing is what attracted me to swooping in the first placeIts amazing what can be achieved with the right pilot,and shows the potential for some serious fun under a seemingly 'less'high performing canopies. .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #6 July 12, 2007 A sabre2 is a better swoop-canopy then a pilot. The sabre2 is a bit more aggresive and has a longer recovery arc. My first canopy was also a pilot. Great canopy but not for swooping when loaded lightly (wl 1:1). I now have a sabre2 and have appr. 450 jumps. It is a very nice canopy to learn hp landings. I would strongly suggest it for your next canopy. A saphire2 might have better openings then a sabre2 but also has a shorter recovery arc. I don't care much about the openings of the sabre2. They are soft and if it tends to open off-heading I can counter steer it with harnes-input or rear risers. You shouldn't even be thinking about a katana or xfire2 at this point. ... There is a sabre2 appreciation video somewhere on www.skydivinigmovies.com...go watch it :) _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #7 July 12, 2007 Thanks, guys. It's been a while since I jumped the Sabre2. I'll have to give it another try. And yes, definitely will give the Safire a try as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 July 13, 2007 I have switched to Cobalt135 after jumping my Pilot150. I love the way it flies. It could be like a school girl at your wing load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #9 July 13, 2007 hopefully not like the catholic high school girls I dated... cause then the canopy will tear up your back and bite you and then totally fuck you rotten.... wasnt a huge fan of the cobalt...but this I will say the one I flew 105 did dive like a crackwhore in a sheetrock factory... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 July 13, 2007 Quote wasnt a huge fan of the cobalt...but this I will say the one I flew 105 did dive like a crackwhore in a sheetrock factory... Well, I assume that you load it a bit more than 1.1 . Its still nice and friendly over 1.5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #11 July 13, 2007 Just so ya know I started learning to swoop on a pilot 210(wl1.1:1), I never did anything more than a 90 on it, but i still got that canopy to do some amazing things at that size and loading. I, believe it or not broke the 100 foot mark once or twice with that set up. I love the Pilot, great canopy, and if you're just startng out it's there to bail you out when you make those little oopsies that are bound to happen in the beginning.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #12 July 13, 2007 Quote Quote wasnt a huge fan of the cobalt...but this I will say the one I flew 105 did dive like a crackwhore in a sheetrock factory... Well, I assume that you load it a bit more than 1.1 . Its still nice and friendly over 1.5. I think it was loaded about 2lbs per sq ft Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #13 July 13, 2007 I learned to swoop on a Saber 150. Loaded about 1.3 and spent quite a good period of time with that canopy. It was a loaner from a good friend of mine who has progressed pretty damn well in the swooping arena. He learned on the same canopy. There are a lot of foundational things you can learn and should learn on a canopy that has a positive recovery arc. It will save your ass when you do mess up and you will. I think your purpose would be served by going to a more agressive wingloading rather than a more agressive canopy type. Honestly, I was jumping around 1.3 (saber2 170) by jump 20ish. I kept that wingloading on through jump ~300. After that I jumped the saber150 through like jump 800 and learned a lot. I jump a Xfire2 now and like it mostly cause of the openings but another 500 odd jumps has made me itchy to go much smaller.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #14 July 13, 2007 Sounds like i'm mirroring your progression programme,i've pretty much follow/ed/ing the same path. .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #15 July 13, 2007 there is limitation to big/lightly loading canopy. My Safire 189 does the same thing.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 July 13, 2007 Think about where you're going to end up or you're thinking about ending up. Sabre2, Katana, Velo is a good path with canopies that compliment each other as you learn. Pilot, XF2, VX is a good path with canopies that work well together as well. Wingloading, at the beginning, isn't the most important concern, beyond making sure you're not loading too high. While jumping a mid-range canopy loaded around 1 is the perfect opportunity to learn about many of the techniques that translate to major differences later. Not just when to turn, any monkey can watch their digital altimeter and yank on a riser. Learn and work with different kinds of turns (not just turn degrees, but how you turn...double front/harness, single to double, double to single, carving into a steep turn, etc) Also work with body position and harness input in the turn. Sure, you won't get much out of the harness, but you'll get a little. Which is good, since later it makes a huge difference. Also work with overall body position. Your body effects your canopy flight just like it effects freefall. Different body positions give you advantages for certain things, etc. A good canopy coach will be covering all of these things with you. If you don't have a coach, well, I highly suggest that you get one. If not you'll be learning like a lot of did at the beginning, which is feeling blindly in the dark and relearning what others had already learned before you. All that does is waste your time and money.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justchrisdsp 0 #17 July 20, 2007 i think the pilot can be an excellent canopy to learn on. the short recovery arc can be a hassle but it can also be a savior in the beginning, i know it saved me a couple of times, as far as jumping it at a low wingloading i think that is the best idea with your jump numbers and learning how to swoop, it is annoying now but the fundamentals you will be gaining will be invaluable for later, i started learning how to swoop on a pilot 188 and then moved to a crossfire 169, from there i went to the mamba 150, 132, and soon the 124, but i learned my basics on that pilot, plus i have jumped a pilot 140 and 132 and at the wingloadings those things were monster swoopers, so dont get discouraged and think it is the canopy, just remember that in the beginning of swooping it will take a little time to get it right, i can almost garauntee you that someone like aggiedave could take a canopy like that pilot 150 and get some great swoops on it simply because of technique and experience. keep learning and beeing safe The only bad skydive is your last! chris "sonic wookie" harwell Piedra-belluda-roja Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,393 #18 July 20, 2007 >the short recovery arc can be a hassle but it can also be a savior in the beginning . . . Short recovery arcs have three big problems: 1) They require more accuracy in the setup 2) They train you to initiate lower than you should 3) They are more dangerous in terms of reaction time. Since you have to initiate low, you don't have much time after you start the turn to dodge other canopies, adjust your trajectory or anticipate thermals/sink. I think larger Pilots are great, but I wouldn't recommend them at loadings above about 1.5 for people who want to learn HP landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonka 2 #19 July 20, 2007 I am not an experienced canopy pilot but may be able to provide some helpful advice. Although it is very possible to swoop a non elliptical canopy, I would recommend something with a longer recovery arc so you don't have to turn so close to the ground. A Pilot can be swooped but having to turn low just doesn't seem like the right way to learn in my eyes. As you jump more HP canopies they will need more and more altitude to recover so why make that a habit when you will need to break that habit anyway. Having to turn low is also dangerous for the exact reasons the last poster pointed out. A Sabre2 is a good canopy because they are fast and glide out well when flared making for a nice canopy to learn on. I really enjoyed figuring a lil bit about swooping on one of them. I fly a Cobalt now and would recommend one for learning to swoop. It compares to a Sabre2 on steroids. The Cobalt is advertised as flying as fast as a canopy size smaller but having the flare of a size bigger. I agree with this and think it is a great canopy to learn because less of a turn is required than on a Pilot or Sabre2 to get that speed and you don't have to turn it so low. Its recovery arc is longer which is good because you will actually learn how the canopy recovers in relation to the ground and not have to turn and flare right away or double front riser into a flare as you said. A Cobalt is also very docile when not pushed so don't worry about it being too aggressive. I would recommend a Cobalt one size smaller that what you jump because of how they fly. (Flies faster like a smaller canopy but flares like a bigger one) My Cobalt has real light front riser pressure so diving and holding the fronts to stay in a dive like you are experimenting with is not such a chore. My favorite part about the Cobalt is how it glides out so well when flared so you don't have to put your feet down until you are stopped. I have seen great swoops on non elliptical canopies by very experienced pilots but the turns they do are ridiculous. Learning to swoop should not include having to do huge turns or low turns. Thats just my look on things. As I said before, I am not an experienced canopy pilot but have shown good progress and listen to experienced canopy pilots. Ask your canopy coach what you should do. I am sure they will have the correct answer. We have about the same jump #'s and time in the sport so I thought my insight might help. Have fun learning to swoop because I sure am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #20 July 20, 2007 I would agree with what most of Dave said. However I did put ~300 jumps on my Pilot 150 @ 1.4 before downsizing (to a Safire2 129 @ 1.6) and was doing 135 and 180 front riser approaches to land. It does have a very positive recovery arc, but it can be swooped reasonably well. Safire2 at the same wingloading is possibly a better choice though IMHO. Short recovery arcs have their problems (low initiation) but they dig out much quicker too if you need it and, at more moderate loadings like 1.4, the consequences will be less severe if you really muck up. Any canopy will help you develop a sight picture, which you will use during your turn to know if to bail! Don't get an elliptical now; something like a Xfire2 or Katana is way too aggressive for learning! Besides, you won't get the benefit from such a canopy until you get to a wingloading of at least 1.6; 1.8-2.0 is probably closer to the optimum in terms of getting the benefits out of such a canopy. Last caution: Neptunes, VISOs etc are great and can really help... but don't become the sort of guy who looks at the alit thinks "I've hit x hundred feet" and yanks the front riser. That approach is the surest way to the hospital. Richard-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #21 July 20, 2007 First off, thanks for your contribution to the thread Quote I am not an experienced canopy pilot Then why are you jumping a Cobalt 95? Quote Although it is very possible to swoop a non elliptical canopy, I would recommend something with a longer recovery arc so you don't have to turn so close to the ground. Recovery arcs have very little to do with the taper of the wing - take the velocity - it's not a very tapered wing at all, but it's probably one of the most ground hungry wings out there. Quote As you jump more HP canopies they will need more and more altitude to recover so why make that a habit when you will need to break that habit anyway. Not true for a couple of reasons. If you're having to break habits then you're downsizing too quickly or havent followed a good progression. By getting a turn down on one wing and making small but incremental canopy choice changes you can avoid changing your world so much at once that everything feels foreign and that you have to 'start over'. Additionally while a longer arc theoretically allows the pilot more time to make corrections they also REQUIRE the pilot to begin the process much higher than the shorter recovery arc. So, essentially, if you're not on your game on a long recovery arc canopy you now just have more speed when you frap into the dirt. They're a double edged sword. Now, I don't necessarily disagree that there are slightly longer arcs than the pilot that aren't excessively long (like the Sabre2) that are appropriate - but just looking at the recovery arc itself is not enough. Quote I would recommend a Cobalt one size smaller that what you jump because of how they fly. (Flies faster like a smaller canopy but flares like a bigger one) I wouldn't and nor would I recommend a Cobalt for someone with those jump numbers. Depending on the OP skills (and those with similar numbers) about the smallest I'd recommend is a 150 or 135 at BEST. It would be entirely dependant on the skillset of the jumper, but I've yet to meet someone around those jump numbers that I'd recommend smaller to - like it or not, you (the pilot) just dont have enough canopy time at that point. Quote I have seen great swoops on non elliptical canopies by very experienced pilots but the turns they do are ridiculous. Learning to swoop should not include having to do huge turns or low turns. They probably do the big turns BECAUSE they are experienced. Swooping well does not require any large turns at all - in fact a persons ability to swoop has NOTHING at all with how many rotations they do. A well executed 90 degree turn is FAR FAR FAR more impressive than a crap 270 or more (and will go further too most of the time ) To the original poster - talk to Muppet at Orange he's a good pilot and someone who takes canopy flight seriously. Get feedback from him but don't rush to downsize if its unnecessary at this time. edit: I agree with Pendragon - the KA or the XFire are not appropriate canopy choices at this stage. The Sabre2 or Safire2 class canopies are more suited to giving you a good learning experience. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
