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jlmiracle

Need of having an ambulence at meets? (was: Deland Fatality)

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I have to mention one thing here, not really related to the fatality but more towards the bitter attitude i now have towards some local Deland staff members. One of them made a remark that was completely inappropriate. As Dale's body was loaded in the ambulance, one of the locals said: "They should keep the ambulance here, since you will need it again soon".



Its a swoop competition so they weren't out of line by saying that. I've said it many a time, when the swooping is out of control. We had an ambulance on stand by at the DZ when we had one.

Sorry he died but he if take the extra risks by swooping...

j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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swooping is out of control.


Seriously?

Come down to one of the Southeast CPC Competitions next season, and then let me know if you still think the swooping is out of control. We have some of the best canopy pilots competing, many of which can out-fly the "pro" competitors. We are Canopy Pilots, not "out of control" beer-line swoopers. Furthermore, judges are very quick to hand out "yellow cards" to any pilots who seem to be out of control, whether it be in their set-up, turn, or landing.

Sure, having an ambulance on stand-by may not be such a bad idea! However, the ill timing of this comment, in addition to the rude remarks made by the staff towards "swoopers" that were helping to catch Tandems in the 25+ mph winds (swoopers who also happened to be Tandem I's and Tandem I/E's) definitely served as the straw that broke the camel's back in many of the competitor's minds.

:|

--Jairo
Low Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam!

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It was the way his statement was made. It was ignorant and inappropriate. It was not a concern for possible injuries, it was a poor attempt at dark humor.

I can see how you may have gotten the impression that the person was concerned about our safety so i apologize about my earlier reply to you.

Jairo's post pretty much describes what i would want to say.

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Its a swoop competition so they weren't out of line by saying that.



Yes, they (and you) are completely out of line by saying that. If someone dies base jumping, is it appropriate to say, "That's what he gets for taking the risk" in front of friends, right after the accident? If someone dies of lung cancer, would you walk by mourning friends in the hospital saying, "that's what he gets for smoking"? Or maybe this will hit a little close to home: a wuffo walks by you after one of your friends goes in and says, "that's what he gets for taking the extra risk of skydiving". Dale was a fellow competitor and a friend to many. Posting, "Sorry he died but he if take the extra risks by swooping... " for friends, family, and media to read, simply lacks class.... [:/]

What do you mean by, "when the swooping is out of control"? :S That's just ignorant. Competitors exit the plane in a predetermined order, over multiple passes. All swoop one at a time, with sufficient spacing between jumpers, through an established course. How in the world can you say this swooping is 'out of control'? :S

Granted, it may not be a bad idea to have an ambulance on standby. It would actually be nice to always have an ambulance on hand at every DZ, given the amount of 'beerline swooping' in far less controlled environments, by less skilled canopy pilots. [:/]

Jeff
Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

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>What do you mean by, "when the swooping is out of control"?

Perhaps that someone died when he lost control of his canopy.

>Granted, it may not be a bad idea to have an ambulance on standby.

Are you saying this because you hate swoopers, or because you think that when many people push the limits in competition, they are more likely to be injured?

There were several ambulances standing by at every Bridge Day I've been to. Was a good idea - because BASE jumping is dangerous. Indeed, the more people that get together and do it, the more likely you are to need an ambulance. Same with swooping competitions.

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We have ambulances on stand-by at auto racing events, motorcycle racing events, even high school sports events...having an ambulance at ANY sporting competition is simply a good precaution so as to assist those in need....no matter their skill level or sport of choice.

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be nice to have an ambulance there just in case. Minutes and seconds could mean a life. i dont think it would attach any stigma too this.

I guess at competitions participants would push harder becuase its for all the marbles.

Sorry to his family, friends and skydiving buds. it is very sad.

I think swooping is part of the sport just another disipline and has its own unique dangers. I wonder if setting up some type of protection in frot of the gates would help.

example of the extreme motocross guys do flips into a special foam area like 10 ft thick. has anyone ever seen that ? or the hollywood stunt inflatable matresses that are large that the stunt men fall like 60 ft and more into.

i guess its not practical.

Is there a video of the accident?? anywhere on the web? i saw the orlando sentinal video but it doesnt show the impact. I hate to see it but i would like to see what happend to learn from it.

i hate seeing those videos but thy can be a strong learning tool.

again i hope asking to see the video isnt out of line.

again sorry for the loss to all who knew him.

Chris

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>>Yes, they (and you) are completely out of line by saying that.<<

Why? We had an ambulance at all my high school football games. It got used once for a broken ankle. I cannot think of a single big skydiving event that I have attended that did not have at least one person get injured.

The canopy class at WTS that had an ambulance on site (the event to which Judy is referring) may not have made use of the ambulance, but it was not that large of an event and had a relatively small number of swoops compared to a big meet at a big dz like Deland.

If you are under the impression that an ambulance is not a useful item to have on hand at a swooping competition, I think you may have a very unrealistic idea of the dangers of the sport.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

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sorry i never seen the swoop course set up i know the pond gives alot of protection right?

i was curious why didnt the swooper hit the pond? does the pond extend past the gates? or are the gates at one end of the pond. So when he was diving down did he hit the ground before the pond??

Also wondering if anyone knows a location of the video of the accident?

Chris

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I have to mention one thing here, not really related to the fatality but more towards the bitter attitude i now have towards some local Deland staff members. One of them made a remark that was completely inappropriate. As Dale's body was loaded in the ambulance, one of the locals said: "They should keep the ambulance here, since you will need it again soon".



Its a swoop competition so they weren't out of line by saying that. I've said it many a time, when the swooping is out of control. We had an ambulance on stand by at the DZ when we had one.

Sorry he died but he if take the extra risks by swooping...

j



Rudeness is always out of line.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>>Yes, they (and you) are completely out of line by saying that.<<

Why? We had an ambulance at all my high school football games. It got used once for a broken ankle. I cannot think of a single big skydiving event that I have attended that did not have at least one person get injured.

The canopy class at WTS that had an ambulance on site (the event to which Judy is referring) may not have made use of the ambulance, but it was not that large of an event and had a relatively small number of swoops compared to a big meet at a big dz like Deland.

If you are under the impression that an ambulance is not a useful item to have on hand at a swooping competition, I think you may have a very unrealistic idea of the dangers of the sport.



I don't think that having ems on stand by is a bad idea as they are trained to deal with the trauma and obtain iv access/airway in crucial incidents. They have the medications on hand to resuscitate if need be. In our state the only time they call it in the field is after they have talked to a physician in one of the local hospitals - its hard to know exactly what the person meant by making that statement. When a stressful event occurs one can make a statement and not realize how harsh it really sounds - happens all of the time when we run codes in the ER, when family/friends are around you really have to extra vigilant about what you say and how you say it as they are in crisis mode and may not take what is said into context or may misinterpret what is meant by what is said. At least that is how it has been in my limited experience in the ER for the last 7 yrs.
DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

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i was curious why didnt the swooper hit the pond?



There's no swoop pond in DeLand.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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I don't think that having ems on stand by is a bad idea as they are trained to deal with the trauma and obtain iv access/airway in crucial incidents.



>:( Unfortunately, the EMS that responded to this incident were looking around at each other asking, "what do you think we should do?" followed by, "I don't know, what do you think we should do??" "Do we treat this as Trauma?".

Seriously?!

I hope my life never depends on the appropriate response & actions of the crew that responded to this emergency Sunday morning.

:o:S>:(

--Jairo
Low Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam!

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Ok no swoop pond sorry i didnt know. I guess i assumed a pond.

I was a medic and worked ambulance we never sat around like that.

Its usally automatic air way first, then imibolaize, bleeding, you know. central lines all that.

no matter what you saw or what you think you have to go all out. I imagine what the ems people saw they had never seen and they knew this would be a multiple trauma, where to start i am sure it was overwealming for them. I am sure it wouldnt happen a second time.

many times people die and you cant beleive it, you say no way they were ok and others ill tell you you just know they wont make it and then they do, it is amazing.

One thing at the future events If Ems is there for the day.

Get the ems people together and give them a briefing. Tell them the history of swooping and what has gone wrong or what can go wrong with canopies, hitting the ground, hitting obstacles, and what speed you guys are going. Tell them the injuries and fatalities and maybe they can get themselves geared up and know what to expect.
these ems guys are most likely watching in awwhh of whats going on. They probubly havent seen this type of activity and may think it is safer then it is.

I am just suggesting, the first time i ever saw anyone swoop when i was an aff guy i was like wow!!!!!!! funny i didnt think of the danger more then the skill of the canopy pilot. then i saw videos on the internet of swoop crashes and chows it brings in the reality of wat can happen

I guess give the ems guys a briefing and maybe where they should set up, best way to leave and closest hospital, what they should do and respond to ect... I dont think it would insult them but it would prepare them.

just a thought
Chris

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Ok no swoop pond sorry i didnt know. I guess i assumed a pond.

I was a medic and worked ambulance we never sat around like that.

Its usally automatic air way first, then imibolaize, bleeding, you know. central lines all that.

no matter what you saw or what you think you have to go all out. I imagine what the ems people saw they had never seen and they knew this would be a multiple trauma, where to start i am sure it was overwealming for them. I am sure it wouldnt happen a second time.

many times people die and you cant beleive it, you say no way they were ok and others ill tell you you just know they wont make it and then they do, it is amazing.

One thing at the future events If Ems is there for the day.

Get the ems people together and give them a briefing. Tell them the history of swooping and what has gone wrong or what can go wrong with canopies, hitting the ground, hitting obstacles, and what speed you guys are going. Tell them the injuries and fatalities and maybe they can get themselves geared up and know what to expect.
these ems guys are most likely watching in awwhh of whats going on. They probubly havent seen this type of activity and may think it is safer then it is.

I am just suggesting, the first time i ever saw anyone swoop when i was an aff guy i was like wow!!!!!!! funny i didnt think of the danger more then the skill of the canopy pilot. then i saw videos on the internet of swoop crashes and chows it brings in the reality of wat can happen

I guess give the ems guys a briefing and maybe where they should set up, best way to leave and closest hospital, what they should do and respond to ect... I dont think it would insult them but it would prepare them.

just a thought
Chris



Chris,

I think you make a good point about briefing them if the ems crew is going to be around for the day. Luckily at our little DZ we have a ER doc, an Er nurse who is also a nurse practitioner, two or three flight nurses and an emt....just to name a few off the top of my head. So we know what needs to be done and have a first aid kit with items to resuscitate if needed.

It is unfortunate that the perception that people have been left with is that the EMS crew didn't know what they were doing and really didn't help.:(:(
DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

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I understand, was the Dr. and nurse practitioner present that day?

Its good you have folks like that there. I assume they skydive.

Little DZ? isnt deland a huge dropzone?

I wasnt implying you guys dont know what to do i was just sharing a thoughts of briefing the ems about the sport.

I am telling you I never even heard of swooping when i was a AFF student and when i saw it and found these guys were going 60-90 mph wow its incredible.

I am sure most ems people neve are briefed about swooping as a normal sprting event like nscar and motcross.

Thats why i was saying give them a briefing on everything that can happen.

didnt mean to imply anything at all

Chris

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I understand, was the Dr. and nurse practitioner present that day?

Its good you have folks like that there. I assume they skydive.

Little DZ? isnt deland a huge dropzone?

I wasnt implying you guys dont know what to do i was just sharing a thoughts of briefing the ems about the sport.

I am telling you I never even heard of swooping when i was a AFF student and when i saw it and found these guys were going 60-90 mph wow its incredible.

I am sure most ems people neve are briefed about swooping as a normal sprting event like nscar and motcross.

Thats why i was saying give them a briefing on everything that can happen.

didnt mean to imply anything at all

Chris



We don't jump out of Deland....that is what is available at our DZ most weekends - which is in eastern washington. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I agree....briefing them is a great idea and something that should be considered.
DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

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I think an ambulance/doctor on standby is a good idea. In motor racing they have to have a number of doctors/paramedics on site just in case, else there is no racing allowed. I'm sure they volunteer their time as well so funding wouldn't come into it.

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I'm sure they volunteer their time as well so funding wouldn't come into it.



I suspect you are being overly optimistic thinking that an ambulance might show up, and spend an entire day dedicated to a single event for free. But, spread the cost across all the competitors, and some sponsors, it becomes tolerable. We preach "safety first" all the time for sport jumping... So why is it different during competitions??? It can be difficult to put your wallet where your mouth is, but I think it is wise to just plan the expense of having an ambulance on standby into the event budget.

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I think an ambulance/doctor on standby is a good idea. In motor racing they have to have a number of doctors/paramedics on site just in case, else there is no racing allowed. I'm sure they volunteer their time as well so funding wouldn't come into it.



They had paramedics on site all through the recent Texas State Record 150-way event.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I'm sure they volunteer their time as well so funding wouldn't come into it.



I suspect you are being overly optimistic thinking that an ambulance might show up, and spend an entire day dedicated to a single event for free. But, spread the cost across all the competitors, and some sponsors, it becomes tolerable. We preach "safety first" all the time for sport jumping... So why is it different during competitions??? It can be difficult to put your wallet where your mouth is, but I think it is wise to just plan the expense of having an ambulance on standby into the event budget.



In the UK and many former colonies there is an outfit called "St. John Ambulance" which provides a first aid presence at many events. It is a charity, so presumably there is little or no cost involved.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You are right, I believe St John Ambulance do play a role but in motor racing they also have doctors who volunteer their time for free purely for their love of the sport. I think according to the MSA there must be 2 doctors on standby at all events plus some other medical support. Something like that.

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