xaos 27 ?????

[airborne82nd 0]

does the xaos 27 auto recover

how does it open?

how is the bottom end of the flare?

is the front riser high or low?

does it dive harder then a crossfire but less then a velocity?

is it a twitchy like the vx at wing loading 1.7

how does the flare finish?

how easy is it to land straight in.

how user freindly is it compared to other cross braced

i heard the 21 is sweet but the 27 offers more flare power.

thanks

[Spizzzarko 0]

Hi,

Cross braced canopies do have quite a bit of flare power but if you are using them at lower loadings like 1.7 then you are not really gaining the effectiveness of the cross bracing. These canopies are fun but you have to realize that they do come with baggage. It's like dating strippers. It is fun at first but then the baggage gets in the way and it becomes to much work unless you are seriously commited to the relationship. Even then you are the one doing all the work.

With CB canopies it is the same deal. The canopy is going to behave how it was designed to do so. You will be forced to make changes in your style and the way you fly your canopy or it will kill you.

Not so long ago you were asking about 180 degree turns and what not. I would suggest that you really evaluate why you are interested in CB canopies and honestly ask yourself if you are ready for one.

You will become a much better swooper if you spend the money on coaching with your current crossfire canopy. If you are comfortable with your canopy now then learn new aspects to it like rear riser flight and landings. Then try some freestyle moves on for size. That is usually an eye opener.

Best of luck dude, and remember that CB canopies are cool but they will seriously hurt you or kill you if you fuck up.

Grant

[rhys 0]

Thats what I like about you grant;

You are most informative and serious when the need arises but a super smart ass when you can't think of anything better to say!

Good shit! and well said.

P.S. have you ordered your sigma to put your all sail jvx in yet?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Spizzzarko 0]

Sigma bwaaa hahahaa

I found the Drouge was to hard to pull in when I attach it to the RDS hahahahaaaaaa

Actually I'm selling my JVX. I have lost some weight and I am looking for a higher loading this season, so I am looking to purchase a smaller all sail. Don't get me wrong the canopy is great! and then power on the rears is amazing, but I am just looking for a little higher loading this season. So if you know some one who wants a JVX right now and doesn't want to wait send em my direction it is an 89 with 10 jumps on it.

Thanks for the compliment too. Best of luck with your canopy and I hope you get more jumps on it brotha. Please be carefull out there.

Grant

[diablopilot 2]

Give ya a 1000 bucks for it.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[airborne82nd 0]

i do appreciate your comments really thanks
you are as wise as you are ugly.
going by your photo there


looking to get into a crossbraced by nov - dec 2007

ways off from now.


I have someone watching out for me and suggested to get into the biggest crossbraced and go from there.

he said jumping into the 2.0 loading is too much but get into a big crossbraced and go from therre.

i have jumped the fx a few times didnt like it.

velocity, vx all to much. for me

neos is actually a hard diver and doesnt want to plane out on its own so that canopy is out.

onyx is well out also for various reasons

xaos 21 or 27 has been sugested at the largest size.

jumped on crossfire loaded 1.82.

have 9 months to a year to do this so no rush.

i just wanted some opinions on the 27 i think that or the 21 is my only options down the road for progression.

any answers to the canopy characteristics would be appreciated

[Spizzzarko 0]

No CB canopy is really going to want to plane out on it's own. The closest you can get to that would be an FX. I had an FX104 for a long time. It was a good little canopy.

The problem with purchasing larger CB canopies is that they are harder to resale. You may want to think about just increaseing the wingloading on your xfire or getting a smaller xfire. The xfire should hold up and perform ok up to about 1.9 or so. That would give you a little better of an idea of what to expect when and if you decide to go CB. Many canopies have vastly different flight characterists at higher loadings. Try slapping on some weight. I think you might be surprised at what your current canopy will do.

[airborne82nd 0]

have a xfire 119 also

jumped down to a 109.

jumped fx it planed out on its own but seemed like it was trimmed steep not great glide.

flew the katana that didnt want to plane out i guess its like the velocity i wouldnt know.

i understand the xaos 21 is better then the fx in glide flare everything and openings how many vid guys say they fly them.

i dont care about resale i have lost money on canopies all ready.

i guess the xaos 21 is more for a begginer then the 27

xaos 21

[marks 0]

Quote

i guess the xaos 21 is more for a begginer then the 27

there is not a cross braced, or a canopy that has crossbracing that I know of that is suitable for a beginner.

do yourself a favor, and make sure your not lying to yourself, before you go to a crossbraced canopy.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

i guess the xaos 21 is more for a begginer then the 27

First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as a "beginner" cross-braced canopy. Seriously. Nobody has any business whatsoever jumping one with under 1000 jumps in my very-experienced opinion. No amount of reading this forum (or Jim's, registered trademark, do not copy) is going to prepare you to own a crossbraced canopy. What WILL prepare you for one is a ton of jumps on slightly-less-agressive, non-braced canopies. What I mean by a ton of jumps is as many jumps as you have listed TOTAL in your profile on one heavilly-loaded 9-cell. You do not have a lot of jumps, brother.

Back in 2001, myself and my two teammates (Bryan Harrell from Elsinore and Eric Butts from Hawaii) competed professionally with great success under nine-cells. The worst of us finished 13th overall in the nation that year.

Crossbraced canopies do not make great AFF canopies, video canopies, nor general RW canopies. They require a ton of attention, don't open nearly as good as their nine-cell counterparts (which also swoop great). A crossbraced canopy is not "required equipment" to hang out with the cool kids (who can't swoop to save their asses) in the freefly teamroom at most dropzones.

I have said this before; possibly in this thread: if you can't wring every single ounce of performance out of what is currently over your head then you DO NOT need a new canopy.

Parachutes are fucking EXPENSIVE nowadays. Buy what you can handle and afford and then jump it until you have worn it out or explored every limit of it's capabilities. I am fascinated how fast people "progress" these days. You know what? I have not had a new canopy in four years. Hell, my current Velo is was built in 1999! Just because you can afford a new three thousand dollar JVX does not mean you ought to buy one five months after you jump your first Crossfire.

I don't mean to be callous, but you know what? It needs to be said. Over and over again, apparently.

Chuck

[dharma1976 0]

Right on Chuck...

I can say this...my crossfire2 119 at around 1.8-1.9 does very well...I like it I fly the bejesus out of it, and most likely am looking for a second one to put in my other rig for this season...

I find that I can a get back from god knows where...can land that shit easily in many conditions, on rears fully, can carve it a strong ass ninety...shit I think it is a great canopy period the end...

Airborne...I have said this before and I will say it again why rush...that canopy at that loading will cause a lot of fun to occur if you chillax and really learn it.... not just learn the basics on it and then move on...

I will be jumping my 119 crossfire (with the occasional FX jump) for quite some time...and by quite sometime means that when the canopy wears out I will stop jumping it... thats how much I love it.... (plus the lady has told me that she needs me around to help pay the upcoming mortgage)

so if you want to ignore us all once again and rush something that you can spend the rest of your life doing...feel free...but remember that we told you this stuff as you are counting back from ten....

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Great post Chuck. Couldn't have said it better myself.

See you in Z-Hills when my leg heals up.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[airborne82nd 0]

iam whats wrong with your leg?????

2nd i love how I ask a question and people say stupid comments like not listening to us and remember that when your counting back from 10.

DHarma1975 - who is us? you been in the sport as long as me. and what kind of comment is count to 10 backwards. quite a cheap shot.

i wish people would stop acting like that everytime someone asks a question. its stupid.

i would love to hear some of the comments i have heard in the past in person.

i havent ignored anyones advice thats why i have a crossfire1 119 and a crossfire2 139 at my disposal to jump.

I do like the 1000 jump mark for crossbraced canopys.

which i will exceed this year.

I have flown the fx and to me it was a easy canopy to fly. the katana on the other hand i didnt like at all.

i understand from the xaos 21 would be a good entry level crossbraced. they make it up to 135 and of course any size one wants. It is a favorite of video people.

loading a xaos 21 in the 1.7 range wouldnt be too radical at all is what i flew the fx at. I understand you dont get the whole bennifit of the crossbraced with a lighter wing loading.

ok but if one buys the biggest xaos 21 and downsizes from there i would say thats a safe progression. or at least sensible.

my plans are months and months away i think it wise to do research now. it took me a year to get my crossfire of research and demo's.

Dharma1976 why dont you get an xaos?? if you want to stick with your crossfire fine we are not all the same.
i know you could handle a xaos.

CHuck i wouldnt worry about being callous dont think your being ignored i listen to everything you have said.
and all is well.

I got this info from a very nice thread about the
its from a pa guy.

good read.
[url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=569439;search_string=xaos%2021;#569439

Because... I'm on vacation and only took a few moments away from my lovely wife and beautiful 7 month old Haley... (i.e. shut up and jump you little whiney-ass! Get off the internet and experience skydiving in real time. Only kidding...)


Ok... let's see if I can give you some of the differences between the 21 and 27 Xaos canopies...

let me first cut and paste from the previous posts...

Quote
Differences in pack volume?
Differences in price?
Opening characteristics?
Turn rate?
Riser pressure? (front or rear?)
Toggle pressure?
Dive Rate?


Differences in pack volume?

Add about ~15-20% larger for the 27... (this is from experience... I'm at home and don't have specific volume numbers here.)
There are more pieces sewn together in the cross braced canopies. Take a seven cell standard canopy, for example a Raven reserve, there are 32 separate pieces of fabric. The Xaos 27 consists of 65 parts being joined (the 21 has 51 pieces). This translates into more fabric (more pack volume) than a comparable sized Xaos 21.

Both canopies have virtually the same planform. The 27 uses more pieces to stiffen the airfoil, (more ribs, surfaces and crossbraces).

Differences in price?

The Xaos 21 has a retail price of $2198.00. The Xaos 27 retail price is $2498.00. These prices are for standard sizes. Any other size is available, (yes we have built a 69.5 square foot canopy on request... notice the warning label on that canopy lists a maximum weight of 180 lbs, 10ozs.) Custom sizing costs you an extra $20. Custom colors are no extra charge. Stainless grommets and links are optional...$40 more. I discourage the stainless. The grommets are heavier and cause the canopy to open quicker. (Yes, Dave Brownell was correct.) Our Wrap-It Links (soft links) are included with all canopies.

Opening characteristics?

The Xaos canopies are the best opening crossbraced canopies available, period. I know because I've jumped them all. I'm getting older and openings are VERY important to me. This was the reason we started the Xaos project. The day the VX was released was the very same day the Xaos Project began. The VX release happened in our backyard at the Precision plant. We objected, but our newly hired marketing arm won out. (I have 1200+ Xaos21 jumps, 500+ Xaos27 jumps, 600+ FX jumps, 200+ VX jumps and, yes, 400+ Velocity jumps.)

My favorite? Look at the numbers above. I jump the Xaos 21 in my primary rig (attached to my Skyflyer!).

No other crossbraced canopy opens as comfortably as the Xaos 21. Consistently. Next best is the Xaos27. The greater number of openings, combined with smaller chambers, tend to fill a bit quicker and allow the canopy to hunt a bit more on opening. That said, the Xaos27 is making many camera flyers very happy everyday... Ask them!


Turn rate?

Geez... no idea, honestly. I personally don't care how fast it turns. Not really a consideration for what these canopies are designed to do. I'm not sure if one turns faster than another. I typically jump a slightly smaller 27, so at slightly higher loading it seems to turn faster. But I'm not sure about the difference at the same loading. Sorry. Last time I thought of "turn rate" was reading an ad for the Para-Commander stating a 360 degree turn in 2.5 seconds or something like that. I think if you want to do quick spirals, a regular construction higher aspect ratio canopy will turn faster. (Try a Nitron or Stiletto if that's your cup of tea.) But that's not really what these canopies are about.

Riser pressure? (front or rear?)

Now there's an important consideration! These are Pilot's canopies and it is very important to talk about the control inputs and forces.

The Xaos21 is designed to be very easy to fly well (even for a canopy novice like myself!). We have shifted the center of loading back a bit on this canopy to specifically lighten the front riser pressure. The result is a canopy that is easier to drive in the riser dive. At my age, eyesight is waning, reaction time is slower, etc. This canopy is very smoothly transitioned from full flight to deep dive. This way, a person can start a dive very high, allowing more time to make adjustments and continue to adjust all the way to the recovery and pull out.

This was the critical adjustment made to crossbraced canopies. The Xaos21 is the easiest flying crossbraced canopy. Welcome crossbrace to mainstream skydiving!

Rear riser pressures on the 21 are still very light... i.e. very easy canopy to rear riser land.

The 27... This canopy is the competitors' canopy (but why does everyday Joe-Skydiver love it so much?!)


Time out... gotta run. Time to entertain the Mrs... hope you understand!

Stay tuned for part two!

Chris

Precision Aerodynamics
[email protected]

[airborne82nd 0]

chuck one more thing to remeber.

Some of us dont have the jump numbers but are
very inteligent and have a great capacity to learn and understand.

jump numbers isnt IQ.

and my jump numbers are actually not that low, 600 jumps is experince buy yours are so rediuculously high it skews your opinion.

we all look like low timers to you and 26 years in the sport thats forever.

you need to put your self into the perspective of a 500 jumper today compared where you were at at 500 jumps.

when you had 500 jumps was anyone swooping or sitflying.

you old timers remeber the sport has advanced way beyond when you started. you have been there the whole time to see it.

they didnt do that in my day is a nice quote but truth be told this sport is speeding up more and more and the skill level per jumps is higher now then ever before.


chuck you have 5000 damn jumps who the hell else has that many jumps.

not many.

thats quite a milestone!!!

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

jump numbers isnt IQ.

jump numbers = landings = experience = good judgement = keep you alive

lack of experience = bad judgment = leads to bad experiences (aka injury)

Quote

and my jump numbers are actually not that low, 600 jumps is experince buy yours are so rediuculously high it skews your opinion.

Let's hear your take again on this when you have 1000 jumps... 2000 jumps... 4000 jumps

Quote

you need to put your self into the perspective of a 500 jumper today compared where you were at at 500 jumps.

Can you imagine someone with 100 jumps telling you something like this?

Quote

chuck you have 5000 damn jumps who the hell else has that many jumps.
not many.

those that survive long enough... by listening to those that already have.

Listen to Chuck. Don't be that guy.

Respectfully,
Lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[TALONSKY 0]

May be it was "just me" but the Xaos 27 cell I had did not have very good opennings. At first the end cells would inflate and fly together(Soo much fun). After quite a few of those opennings I finally got it to open consistently without doing that, however it would always open with a wicked fast 360° to one side or the other depending on which side open last. In my humble opinion, I loved the canopy once open but with its consistent inconsistent opennings I would rather jump my VX.
Kirk

[NewClearSports 0]

***2nd i love how I ask a question and people say stupid comments like not listening to us and remember that when your counting back from 10.

Quote

I know how you feel. I got bashed all the time until I removed my profile. So why can't someone that is totaly focused on canopy flight, does mental rehersales of flight path and technique on every jump before bording the plane, that takes all courses and every bit of coaching that is avaliable to them, but has only 900 jumps fly a HP X-braced wing? I don't understand why so much enphesis is put on the "Total" jump numbers.

What I do agree with, and also believe you MUST have whether your jump numbers are 500 or 5000 is :
-Total comitment to Canopy Flight
-Have a plan before bording the plane
-Be comitited to many Canopy Flight only Jumps, don't try and mix fun jumps with leaning a new canopy
-Have a mentor or coach watch you along the way
-Take advise seriously
-Take a canopy course (Recomend Brian Germains Hightly)
-1st hand knowledge of what a bad landing / misjudgment can do to you. Nothing hit's home more then standing there beside your friend waiting for the ambulance, wondering if he is going to live or die. Once you see this, you truely understand how serious this game is!!

All that being said, I agree with the others that you don't need a X-braced yet. Mostly because your not intending on loading it. What's the point? Really they don't do anything until you get past the 2.0 and even then you want to be closer to 2.2 (if you take Germains course he will teach you the technical aspects of canopys to learn why this is true)

I went from a Cobalt 95 to a Velo 96 and was majorly disappointed. The Velo felt Huge! and after about 100 jumps on the Velo I got an 88 Xaos-21 and love it.

The last thing I thought I would add, your X-fire is a kick ass canopy. I have been out swooped many times by X-fires and X-fire 2's. In my opinion they are a X-braced canopy without the X-braces. Really you can load them quite a bit, and they just get faster and faster.

Blue skies

Mike

• Quote

[NewClearSports 0]

Oh, here are some answers to your questions:

does the xaos 27 auto recover
- NO it is a negative recovery arc, as are all modern X-braced canopys. (+ Recovery arc = recovers on its own and creats lift after a turn, Neutral Recovery arc = Recovers to level flight after a turn, - Recovery arc = stays in a dive after a turn)

how does it open?
Great

how is the bottom end of the flare?
Powerfull

is the front riser high or low?
Depends on Wing Loading. At 1.7 you will be doing chin-ups for sure. At 2.2 it is quite managible

does it dive harder then a crossfire but less then a velocity?
Again Wing Loading is the #1 variable. It has the potential to dive just as long and fast as a Velocity.

is it a twitchy like the vx at wing loading 1.7
It basicly is a VX. Made from the VX's original designer (Precision) with definit modifications, and newer upgrades

how does the flare finish?
Strong - lots of lift

how easy is it to land straight in.
easy enough, but what's the point. If your not doing 270's your really only flying it a 1/4 throttle. ( see my analogy at the end)

how user freindly is it compared to other cross braced.
It has great openings which means you can take it termial without a problem, other then that it needs to be taken seriously like any other X-braced wing. If you have a mal, line twist, poped toggle, your in for a Wild Ride!

i heard the 21 is sweet but the 27 offers more flare power.
This is True. 27 has more bottem end power.


All in all X-braced canopys are alot like Super Sport Bikes, amazing technical wonders, refined and refined again and again by the most experienced riders (pilots) in races (competitions) that are won and lost by 1000's of a second. The average rider will never even come close to using the bike to 1/2 of its potential. Many buy the latest greatest bike to look cool parked by the donut shop on a friday night. Most of these guys can't ride worth a crap and the few skilled riders look over thinking 'what a waist of a beautiful machine'. They were never made to go slow and "tour" around, they were made to race and go fast, very fast.

thanks

[dharma1976 0]

it comes from dead people on these forums

Ones that asked the same questions

Ones that from everyone around them were allright and doing fine.

And having to read the incident report and get sad cause we gave them the same answers we gave you...

And because I generally think you are a decent guy from what I have read on these forums and a smart fella and someone I would like a chance to hang with...

I could fly the xaos, I just have more to learn on the Crossfire that I would rather learn at the right place...

A place that allows me to fuck up with out killing myself(hopefully)

A place that allows me to wow people on a conventional nine cell...

But I dont want to become a hella good wheelchair pilot so I wait....

And publically yes I have hurt myself...I did my ankle...it clicks like madhosue now and is bruised all the time from the titanium.

that was 3 Octobers ago...

Hey how about this...

Come do a trip to the Ranch this summer :-)

We can geek out about canopies in person.

Dave

PS I know a guy like you that wound up in a wheel chair
I also know a guy like you that now wins money at swoop comps 400 jumps later...

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[airborne82nd 0]

the xaos 27 is out

oh well, the only logical progression would be a xaos 21

down the road. i hope by the end of this year. at least floridas you can jump all the time

i need to squeeze all the performance i can out of the crossfires till then.

i have a lot of squeezing to do.

thanks to all who gave info

[davelepka 4]

Quote

my plans are months and months away i think it wise to do research now. it took me a year to get my crossfire of research and demo's

Fuck your plans. You want a plan? Jump what you have, and learn to fly a fast, fun parachute (your ceossfire). You spent enough time getting your hands on one, now just fly the thing, and stop thinking about other canopies.

Jump the x-fire until your good at it. When you can land it upwind and downwind, straight in or with a swoop, and you always end up where you want to be, and setting down softly. Thats every jump. When you can do that 200 or 300 times in a row, THEN, see what out there, and demo some stuff.

Your skills and perceptions at that tiem will be far different than they are now. Add to that any new canopies or line trims that will come out between nwo and then, and you can see how much of your time you're wasting.

Spend it jumping. The money that you can lose on canopies? Spend that jumping as well.

[Flswoop 0]

I had an account deleted it also becuase of the BS that is spewed here. I do not mean the advice or knowledge, I am talking about people being rude, hypocritical, and stopming on anyone with a question. The info mostly given is 99% great. Some of you need to ease up on people here you dont know them, most of the time, and if you did you wouldn't say some of the insulting things you say.

That said - Airborne the Xaos 21 is a good choice for your entry into crossbraced, everything else is too much. Maybee the neos but i think the xaos 21 is an easier canopy to manage.

I say wait till you get better with your crossfire and that bright orange one. lol I know you and have seen you swoop and your are doing very well. Your very comfortable on the crossfire and you land it well. The xaos 21 isnt a crossfire but it isnt a velo either. i would say right now you can fly one no problem but you would do better to improve on your crossfire and the smaller one the orange one.

Under loading it isnt a problem and at 1.7-1.8 your not under loading but your not going to get the performance out of it. Yes laoded 1.8 it will out swoop your crossfire.

So your doing good, I know your safe, dont change anything just get better. Your goal by the end of the year a xaos 21 is very possible.

By the way I know Airborne a bit. He is a good dude, he will do anything for ya and actually you get him drinking and he is one crazy funny mo-fo, he is the funniest craziest asses at his dz. Partying with him is nuts. He is also not a big mouth but a very safe, humble, and good flyer. He is great on the medical end and he is there when some gets hurt. The guy is so smart he should have been a Doctor ( I thought he was ) He is a family guy, former Airborne Ranger danger recon jumpmaster or something of the sort, and he is a former Black Belt Tournament fighter. He has some neck disease ( which will interfere with his jumping from time to time ) so he doesnt do any of the martial art stuff anymore he says.

The one thing I can say is he is a Artist his videos and editing rock. I have never seen anyone shoot a and edit a video like he does. The style and creativity of his vids are great. He makes dvd's of his work and he gives them out.

Like I said I know him a bit and can vouch for his character. You do not really know who people are on here. Best to treat everyone with respect. If you swoop into the ground you would be lucky to have Airborne there until ems arrives.

Scott

[airborne82nd 0]

Got it Dave,
you were on a crossfire a long time, right

Oh shit I must have woke dave up.

thanks scott ? Velocity scott????

sorry i am good with faces and asses but not names.

[Flswoop 0]

Good post. Funny my progression mirrors yours.

Progression

Navigator
Tri - 220
Tri-190
Sabre-190
Sabre2-150
Stileto-150
crossfire-139
Space -109
Cobalt - 95
Velocity-96

I did the same thing.

[billvon 2,381]

>Some of us dont have the jump numbers but are
>very inteligent and have a great capacity to learn and understand.
>jump numbers isnt IQ.

Right. And IQ isn't skill.

>you need to put your self into the perspective of a 500 jumper
>today compared where you were at at 500 jumps.

And I think you need to realize that we remember what it was like to have 500 jumps. You don't know what it's like to have 5000. That gives us a bit of an edge. Doesn't mean that people with 500 jumps are idiots; far from it! A friend of mine with 300 jumps got invited on the 2002 bigway record. But she got on that jump not by claiming she was smart and skilled, and the old farts were all being overcautious and forgetful - she learned from those same people you are dissing and worked her ass off.

>when you had 500 jumps was anyone swooping or sitflying.

When I had 500 jumps they were. They called it freak flying back then; Roger Nelson was big into it. (Yet some freeflyers still think they "invented" it!) People were swooping their Fandangos (which was a crossbraced canopy too BTW) and breaking themselves just like they are today - but most fatalities were not due to landing accidents because most people were following a more cautious progression.

>you old timers remeber the sport has advanced way beyond when you started.

The sport has definitely advanced, but the reason we ARE old-timers in this sport is that we know that some things have NOT changed - the ground is just as hard and will kill you just as dead when you screw up. If you get a canopy that's beyond your skills, the "magic of modern skydiving" will not save you. You can end up as dead as the guy at our DZ who hooked himself in under his Blue Track in 1991.