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airborne82nd

xaos 27 ?????

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OK we all had a laugh, but the bottom line is that CB canopies are no freaking joke dude. We all know that you are going to do what ever it is that you want to do, but what we are saying in a fucked up way is that we don't want to see any one get broken or dead. No matter how good you are it can happen to you and these canopies require a serious commitment to currency and technique.

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May be it was "just me" but the Xaos 27 cell I had did not have very good opennings. At first the end cells would inflate and fly together(Soo much fun). After quite a few of those opennings I finally got it to open consistently without doing that, however it would always open with a wicked fast 360° to one side or the other depending on which side open last. In my humble opinion, I loved the canopy once open but with its consistent inconsistent opennings I would rather jump my VX.
Kirk




That was also my take on the Xaos-27 vs. VX openings. I preferred the VX's sharp on-heading openings to the Xaos-27 shifty, easy-to-spin openings. In the end I decided enough X-brace headaches for me (such as opening complications and negotiating canopy traffic). I sold my Xaos last year and picked up an Aeroyne Vision. It's been great fun to fly, but has predictable openings. I feel comfortable taking it up for freefall formation jumps (the x-braced canopies I only enjoyed for hop & pops).

Chris

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All right dude. 3 months ago you sent a PM to me asking about XF2s , what should I do this what should I do that.. so on and so forth. I told you what I knew and my experience from my last 500 jumps.. what did you do?

You didn’t listen to my advice. You went 2 or 3 sizes smaller. Smart.

Over the last few months you've been asking people what should I do? How can I get better? What’s this what’s that.

WHY ASK IF YOU WON'T LISTEN?

My rule on downsizing is simple; if you have to ask "Can I?", "Should I", or "Will I be ok"... then you are NOT ready to fly that canopy. To learn about a canopy before you jump it is one of the best things in the world, but if you don’t have confidence, understanding of life saving tools, and some other damn good skills just forget about it. Are you PRO rated on your XF2? Have you landed out in a spot that made you crap your pants? Can you hit the pro gates 9/10 times? I thought so..

My point? Listen to people that try to help you dude. You know nothing man. I know nothing. But some people that have spoken CLEARLY do know something but you show your ass to them like its ok. I think its not fair when people try to help you and you get upset that they don’t give you the answer you want to hear. Just don’t ask then.


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You missed the memo.
I am hanging with the Crossfire.
I did listen to you and am doing well. You gave great advice. thank you

I am not on a smaller crossfire i progressed to a size that i am working with.

No landing off i havent crapped my pants I dont get that rattled and landing off with a crossfire is a peice of cake.

its not me its the canopy it just has flare forever you can dead stop the thing about everry time after swooping. Down wind anything it lands great. i have no great skils i make that clear all the time but the crossfire is a very easy canopy to fly.

Not interested in getting a Pro Ratting, I am not sure if i could land the crossfire in the pees 5 times in a row let alone 10. I can get close like anyone with my jump numbers can.

No i cant hit a gate to save my life yet.

I get acused of not listening but the funny thing is everything I have learned to do from camera, to free fly and landing and now swooping, is contributed to the forums. I have been able to learn and put into practice safely with out injury ( no close calls ) the things i have learned hear.

What I dont like is how people say things and how insulting they are. I dont doubt their knowledge nor their skills. I do question their motives and atitudes.

I have a friend who said to me dont ever post in the forum anything ( he is a swooper ) he told me to stop asking questions here. he said most people will rip you on here. why???
thats why most dont even try to post anything.

If you call showing your ass defending yourself then I defend myself. I think its unfair to me to get bashed everytime i ask a question.

People also dont like anyone challenging their way of thinking and the group seems to speak for the group in a consensuos. Try to bring up a new idea they shoot it to hell.

Skydiving is progressing faster and faster and secodnly most of the swoopers give advice and claim authority on progression, but some of them are hugly hypocritical. Their path doesnt jive with the advice that they give and the demands they impose.

Its a free country but here in the swoop forum you cant share nor can you ask questions with out a gang of villigers with pitch forks and shovels running you out of town. and accusing you of not listening.

I was told and I thought from a swooper friend that maybe i can get over to a zaos 21 in the bigest size and transfer my skills there and work with in a crossbraced canopy. It sounded logical to me. Get a xaos 21 130-120 by year 2007 ends ( if all goes well ) and go from there. I may stay there and thats it. I thought if i made the jump i would have after 1 year on the crossfire and about 400 jumps.

I dont think thats to aggressive. but the crowd here didnt like that.
but i did find that the xaos 21 is the only canopy right now out there that i can transfer into crossbraced, when i am ready and squezzed my crossfire of all the speed it can muster.

but I owe most of what i know and what i can do to can be contributed to these the forums. If you know 600 jumps ago i didnt want to get off of a big pink student canopy and vowed to never down size and never to swoop. I cant beleive i am doing things i never thought i could do, my porggress is ok, i have been safe and its hasntt been a scary experrince.

I ask a question how do you do this or that, i hit the dz pull double fronts harness this and that and wow it works just as everyone said. you guys inspire and help people like me achieve things faster and safer then they could have on thier own.
I guess i owe everyone a beer who has ever given me any advice, tips or knowledge. I have been able to put it into good use.

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remember what we say all comes from a good place not us trying to shoot you down brother...cause truthfully thats what you are to us a borther and we would hate to see you down man...

Be safe keep getting coaching...and ask lots of questions of the people near you...they are the ones who will know you best...

and most of all have fun man...

Cheers

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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Hiya Airborne, one poss problem to consider:
when i started jumping a cb wing i did 10-20 jumps and honestly thought it sucked. you see it flew so differently to a nine cell that i thought it was a f-up. The aweful riser press the inability to shut it down properly the lunatic openings and sink rate etc etc all made me think this was a mistake and this whole cb thing wasn't for me. problem is the speed i progressed at didnt give me the exposure to a very broad range of canopies etc. I stuck it out and now i love x-braced wings... all of em for diff reasons. I'm an ok pilot i guess (i finished top 50% of the field at world meet last year and managed 5th place in speed) but im still learning something every time i jump. thats what really blows my mind.
So here's my point: you seem to want to plan quite far ahead and create some kind of schedule to follow and learn by. Thats not a bad thing but remember these wings are not like 9 cells. You may not like it at first and your style WILL need to develope around the wing. so which one is almost irrelevant from that perspective. Also the way you fly now may be diff to the way you fly in 6 months so predicting a 'best way forward' may be more limiting than helpful. kick back. take the pressure off. fly coz you love it and become mindfull of your learning curve and your weaknesses. thats really whats its about.
just my thoughts.
enjoy whatever you do thats the main thing.
theres no rush man the nxt 1000 jumps are gonna happen anyway... may as well do em chilled.:)
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

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May be it was "just me" but the Xaos 27 cell I had did not have very good opennings. At first the end cells would inflate and fly together(Soo much fun). After quite a few of those opennings I finally got it to open consistently without doing that, however it would always open with a wicked fast 360° to one side or the other depending on which side open last. In my humble opinion, I loved the canopy once open but with its consistent inconsistent opennings I would rather jump my VX.
Kirk




That was also my take on the Xaos-27 vs. VX openings. I preferred the VX's sharp on-heading openings to the Xaos-27 shifty, easy-to-spin openings. In the end I decided enough X-brace headaches for me (such as opening complications and negotiating canopy traffic). I sold my Xaos last year and picked up an Aeroyne Vision. It's been great fun to fly, but has predictable openings. I feel comfortable taking it up for freefall formation jumps (the x-braced canopies I only enjoyed for hop & pops).

Chris



Simple solution to the "bowtie" problem on Xaos 27s. Brakes just need to be set deeper, one inch is usually enough to keep the tips from out flying the center cells on opening. I have owned/jumped consistantly six different xaos's and loved the openings on all of them. Two had the bowtie problem and it was a five minute fix!

btw- If the people that were always asking if "x" number of jumps, or do think I'd be ok jumping... would spend more time jumping and less time posting, than they would soon have the required jumps and skills to jump "x" canopy and not get killed.

STOP TALKING ABOUT JUMPING AND START ACTUALLY JUMPING!
the more you know.

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Really they don't do anything until you get past the 2.0 and even then you want to be closer to 2.2



Mike, I am curious what you are basing this statement on?

I load my Xaos21-100sq.ft. at 1.86 lbs/sq.ft. and that seems to work OK.

Riser pressure is not an issue either, neither was it on any of the other crossbraces I have jumped (from Velo 103 down to Velo 84).

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No landing off i havent crapped my pants I dont get that rattled and landing off with a crossfire is a peice of cake.



being fearless is not in your favour when jumping high performance canopies

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i have no great skils i make that clear all the time



and this is a good reason to get a crossbraced canopy, how?

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I am not sure if i could land the crossfire in the pees 5 times in a row let alone 10.



That is the point he was trying to make.

If you can't land a Crossfire at 1.47 lbs/sq.ft (from your profile) in the pea gravel practically every time, you will be ALL OVER THE SHOW on even a lightly loaded crossbraced canopy.

Being able to land your canopy where you want is a pretty good indication of many of the skills used in canopy control.

It shows you understand your canopys flying characteristics and that you have either a very good feeling for or a reasonable understanding of set-up and approach.

These things all become an order of magnitude more important as you progress to higher wingloadings and more high performance canopies.

Learn and perfect these skills on a more forgiving canopy before moving to a very much more unforgiving canopy.


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I can get close like anyone with my jump numbers can.



Which is why most people would think that getting more jumps before going more high performance (i.e. higher wingloading and crossbraced) is a good idea.


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No i cant hit a gate to save my life yet.



Another good thing to learn on a more forgiving canopy.

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but some of them are hugly hypocritical. Their path doesnt jive with the advice that they give and the demands they impose.



So they are not allowed to learn from their own experience and in retrospect say: 'You know what, I rushed my canopy progression and if I could do it over again, I would take it slower, so that is what I will recommend to others.' ??


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I thought if i made the jump i would have after 1 year on the crossfire and about 400 jumps.

I dont think thats to aggressive.



That depends on how fast you learn and what your judgement, awareness and skills are like at that point.

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but i did find that the xaos 21 is the only canopy right now out there that i can transfer into crossbraced, when i am ready and squezzed my crossfire of all the speed it can muster.



How did you find this?

Squeezing all the speed you can from your Crossfire should not be your criterion for moving on.

Having mastered the skills you need to be truly in control of your canopy and being willing to trade a lot of 'forgiveness' from your canopy for a potential increase in performance (if you fly it well it will perform better, if you don't, it won't perform better and will be a lot more dangerous) should be.

Being able to land your canopy in the pea gravel consistently enough to get a PRO rating is one part of a pretty good set of criteria.

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If you know 600 jumps ago i didnt want to get off of a big pink student canopy and vowed to never down size and never to swoop



Totally beside the point, but one of my pet hates are people saying they will never do something and then doing it anyway.

I believe it shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter, of what their own capabilities and a lack of self knowledge.

Do those sound like good characteristics for someone flying the highest performance type of canopy available?

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***Really they don't do anything until you get past the 2.0 and even then you want to be closer to 2.2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mike, I am curious what you are basing this statement on?
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Hey Sam, How are you?
Well, from my understanding after talking a bit about this in Germains course a couple years ago, is this.
What the little X brace pieces of fabric actually do is "Fool the wing into thinking there are more loaded ribs then there actually are". These imaginary load points can make a 7 cell canopy fly like a 9 cell with the line drag of a 7 cell, for example.
Now the #1 most important thing to consider when talking canopy performance is the Wing Loading no matter what type of canopy we are talking about. All ram air parachutes no matter what design or platform will increase in performance (Speed) the more they are loaded, however they all reach a point of diminished returns, for most modern 9 cell's this is very close to 2.0, however by adding the X braces it raises this point of diminished returns quite a bit higher 2.2 to 2.6 or something like that.
So what I am saying is basicly if your jumping a 7 cell X-braced at 1.8, you could also be jumping a regular HP 9 cell of the same size and get about the same performance. I would say a Crossfire, Crossfire 2, katana and a few others definetly fit into this catagory.

That is all. I'm not saying if your not loading don't jump it, you kick ass on that Xaos, you definetly proved that swooping the pond last year!

As for Riser Pressure, you are also very talented at dialing in a new canopy quickly, you also proved that in the CPC this year with switching canopys 3 or 4 times and still doing well, however for those of us not so in-tune we like to start high, and this sometimes means holding the risers (Double Front)even after building up speed and lining up with the gates ect. I'm pretty sure at 1.8 WL you would have difficulties with a velo 103 Definite "PETER PAN!" ;)
All canopys have managible riser pressure at the top, esp. after 1/2 brakes, but holding on to those risers thoughout is another story. Would you agree?

Look forward to seeing again soon.
Summer is on the way.

Blue Skies
Mike

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Sorry if this is off topic, but

Sam I wanted to thank you.
I took your advise on that Reserve. I got myself a PD 143.
Did you know a Tempo 120 reserve is only rated for 132 Lbs.... 132LBS. Who has an exit weight less then that!! I bet alot of people don't know how much they are overloading these things.

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Something i found has helped me greatly in my progression is watching others land and i can honestly say i,ve seen professional camera guys out perform many a x-braced pilot at landing time with their PD Spectre's

Point is,i think you should really learn to consistently 'MAX' out what ever canopy you are flying.

I believe this approach will rewarding down the line to smaller,faster wings competition wings.

Knowing how to fly what you got will help you immensly when that time comes.

For the record,i have approx 500 jumps under a Crossfire2 [email protected] +/- since 2003

I love this canopy and i'm still progressing with it so therefore have no real desire to jump 'the next best thing';)
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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thanks for the latest answers and posts.

you guys hit it right on gives me a greater understanding

appreciate it.

Landing in the peas is a hard thing to do i can get with in 20 ft or in them but i couldnt do 10 consecutive landings in the peas with a crossfire maybe a triathlon. i could never swoop and end up in the pease except by accident.

i am not all over the sky when i swoop i go wear and my outs work out for where i mostly jump.

i need to get 500% more accurate though and need to dive it more efficent and cleaner.

i like the part that cb canopys fly totaly different and i may not like that.

thanks for everyones responce.

the say i wouldnt and do it comment i didnt get but i said i never would swoop even at 200 jumps not until i was at 400 did i start working at it.

thanks again everyone

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I will say this

working a pattern, landing consistantly in the same area...

Hitting gates (which is damn hard...but you know what...

two summers ago...

I was jumping a sabre2 170 freaking 170...I learned how to work out a pattern and get in the lane that we put up every weekend with little orange cones....

once I got it to the point that I could put it in the lanes on every skydive (traffic permitting) then I progrerssed to a 150....

lets just say that I put 50 jumps on the 150 and moved to the Crossfire 2 129...

I asked my S&TA/Manager at the time if he thought it was a good idea, he said dave you hit the lane on every jump you do fuck yeah go for it...

the point of all this is that I learned the accuracy part first and then went for the smaller wing, and let me tell you it has made all the difference.

Hang tight brother, work the accuracy action either hit gates or go for peas...it will be a very important skill that you will thank all of us for hounding you with it...

Here is a good thing for you to think about on my first pond swoop it was the ranch pond swooping meet V1 in august...I hit lane it was a 3 ft lane...

Cheers and safe swoops brothers

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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"The sport has definitely advanced, but the reason we ARE old-timers in this sport is that we know that some things have NOT changed - the ground is just as hard and will kill you just as dead when you screw up."

ROGER THAT!
"When you have tasted flight, you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you have been and there you will always be." Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

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Well, from my understanding after talking a bit about this in Germains course a couple years ago, is this.
What the little X brace pieces of fabric actually do is "Fool the wing into thinking there are more loaded ribs then there actually are". These imaginary load points can make a 7 cell canopy fly like a 9 cell with the line drag of a 7 cell, for example.



Crossbracing does distribute a portion of the load from the line attachment points to the top of the non loaded rib, but it has very little to do with making a 7 cell fly like a 9 cell. That is a function of the planform and aspect ratio more than the crossbracing.

Case in point, the PD Specter exhibits performance traits more similar to 9 cell canopies than many of it's 7 celled counterparts.

Crossbracing can help a canopy design see a reduction in performance loss at higher loadings because the canopy is much less susceptible to distortion when maneuvering.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I actually took this info from Parachute and it's Pilot, 3rd Edition Page 103. (Germains book)
section Cross-Braces
So you are actually correcting Brian not me. It's not quoted exactily, but he does say "he made a 7 cell canopy look and fly more like a 9 cell canopy" "with the line drag of a 7 cell"

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I actually took this info from Parachute and it's Pilot, 3rd Edition Page 103. (Germains book)
section Cross-Braces
So you are actually correcting Brian not me. It's not quoted exactily, but he does say "he made a 7 cell canopy look and fly more like a 9 cell canopy" "with the line drag of a 7 cell"



And does he say it was done by adding crossbracing?
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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This was in reference to the 1st X brace created by a Argentinean accuracy jumper named Daniel Esquivel.
He also says "Most importantly, by spreading the load internally rather than externally, the parachute had the planform of a 9-cell with the "Line Drag" of a 7 cell"

Anyway I do agree with you that it does greatly reduce distortion and I think that Brian is basicly saying this in easy to understand terms.

Oh, and also note we call 7 cell's (21s) and 9 cell's (27s) so there is a hint that it makes the canopy perform as if it had more cells.

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So what I am saying is basicly if your jumping a 7 cell X-braced at 1.8, you could also be jumping a regular HP 9 cell of the same size and get about the same performance. I would say a Crossfire, Crossfire 2, katana and a few others definetly fit into this catagory.




Hi Mike

I have jumped a 105 Samurai, 107 Katana, 97 Katana and 109 Cossfire 2 and none of them performed like my 100 Xaos21 does, so for me, even at 1.8 I see the advantage to going crossbraced.

As for the Tempo, no sweat.

I don't think they are neccesarily dangerous or anything like that when loaded high, but my thoughts on this are:

The manufacturer tests and certifies the reserve.

They base their recommended maximum exit weights on their test results and their level of confidence in their product.

I don't see myself having more confidence in their product than the manufacturer does, so I keep within their recommend limits.

You'll be way happy with a 143R anyways, haven't heard anyone have anything bad to say about PD reserves yet.

see you in March!

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