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jheadley

LEARNING how to swoop, long or short recovery arc?

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It's pretty much generally agreed on that for good swooping, you want a canopy with a long recovery arc (e.g. dives a lot). But what about when you're *learning* how to swoop? I've heard a lot of different opinions. Some say that you still want a long recovery arc so you can turn high, straighten out, and carry that extra speed to landing. Others say you want a short recovery arc, since when you make a mistake, like everyone does when they first learn anything, and turn too low, you will be able to dig out of it faster. I know a competitive swooper with 6000 jumps who says the best canopy to learn to swoop on is a Stiletto, because it has such a short recovery arc, however from reading this board, most people would disagree with that. There seems to be a balance, though, like with pretty much everything in life. An extremely short recovery arc would give you a bad habit of hooking it low, but also nobody really recommends learning how to swoop on a Katana or a Velocity, or any canopy with a whole lot of dive.

Thoughts?

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An extremely short recovery arc would give you a bad habit of hooking it low, but also nobody really recommends learning how to swoop on a Katana or a Velocity, or any canopy with a whole lot of dive.

Thoughts?



The Sabre 2 is perfect for just that. Longer dive than a Stiletto and it's 'feel' is similar to the Katana and Velo. By 'feel' I mean the common characteristics that manufacturers tend to have such as toggle stroke, etc.

IMO it is the perfect 'learn to swoop' canopy, as well as the perfect 'getting more hardcore' swoop canopy at higher loadings.

I've said it a lot but I think it's one of the most underated swoop canopies out there.

recovery arc comparisons:
Stiletto - Quick
Sabre 2 - Long, but not excessive. Begins to recover quickly after a riser is released, but not excessively so.
Katana - Very long - long recovery time - similar to velo.
Velo - Ultra long arc. IMO the longest 'diver' out there.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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I still think the Nitron is one of the best canopies to practice swooping or just plain have fun with. It's more exciting than a Sabre 2 without being twitchy and having a lot of oversteer, I absolutely _love_ HMA lines, and it opens without any drama.

Plus it's cheaper than a Sabre 2.

Chris Martin really hit the nail on the head when he recommended it to me a couple years ago.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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I've never had the chance to jump a nitron so I can't really comment but Yardhippie jumps one at our DZ and seems to do well on it. The recovery arc reminds me of a Sabre2.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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While I agree with nearly everything in your post, I doubt you will find a clear answer to your question. This is a personal opinion and may or may not work for you.

Many of those with 1000's of swoops saying "Go long" learned on canopies with stupidly short recovery arcs. I started toggle spanking 220 sq ft 7 cells at less than 100 ft. Sure, it broke me a femur within 200 dives, but I learned stuff.

When I started re-learning to swoop using risers after 2000+ toggle spanks, I started on a Stilleto, moved to a crossfire, and then went back to a Stilleto/Safire combination. I'm not a super swooper, and the Stilleto will never do what a Velocity will do, but when my AFF takes forever in the door and I need to land out, the canopy works well for me. Next step for me will be a Katana, and I'll stick with that for at least 1000 dives before going to something like a Velo. I'm in no hurry. Been here 20 years and I'm still learning loads.

If you want to learn to swoop - find a mentor.
Then start. Slowly. Double fronts, single riser 45's, then 90's. Stay there for a while.

It doesn't really matter what canopy you're on. You can swoop anything if you know how. There were a few canopies which really didn't like riser input that should be avoided. The Nova and the Jonathan spring to mind. Just about anything released in the last 10 years should work just fine.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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I've never had the chance to jump a nitron so I can't really comment but Yardhippie jumps one at our DZ and seems to do well on it. The recovery arc reminds me of a Sabre2.

Blues,
Ian



i have probably around 350-400 jumps on a Nitro (Hiper) 120. Yea I started under it waaaaay too soon and paid the price in an ankle. I was lucky it wasnt more.
I have since started over and have been able to go good distances with it. I too loooove the HMA lines. its easy to pack and Ive had one premature with it and its forgiving in that respect also. I jump a camera almost every jump and after a 10 jump day my neck isnt killing me. if I have to come straight in for some reason it lands easily.
I am reaching a point where my turns are becoming more and more difficult . With the shorter recovery arc, finding that point where you should start your turn gets tough, because the canopy wants to recover on its own, and I have found at high dive speeds (my protrack flat lining) front riser pressure gets high the last 30 degress of a nice slow 270 turn. some of this a attribute to me needing to focus on my set-up, and turn speeds.
I have enjoyed this canopy and would recommend it for some people.
I expect to stay under this canopy for one more season and then move on to something a little more agressive, giving me about 600 -700 jumps under it before moving on.

Hope that helps.
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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I had a crossfire before I purchase the Nitron a 135 I was amazed on how short the recovery arc is It almost feels like a flare, The problem I see is the 1) you really don't need HMA lines unless you're flying professionaly or competing I had a cut away because of a tension knot and landed rear riser because of a tension knot. 2) The recovery arc is so short that I had to start my 180 degree turn at 300 ft that's pretty low. My Katana has plenty of dive and lighter front riser preassure also love the crossfire similar characteristics. I think a longer recovery arc is better because is safer.
http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

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I think a short recovery arc is perfect for the training-wheel portion of learning swoops and front riser turns on approach.

A lot of pro swoopers, it seems, spent time on 7 cells that are tapered while they were progressing. With one of those, you can learn to do 180's and even 270's with unbelievable accuracy for the amount of jumps that you may have. This makes them an excellent training tool.

So I would have to go with the short recovery arc option until skills in knowing canopy principles is gathered....then move up...a little at a time. And if you fuck up, go a little too low, always have an out, then going to breaks may keep a person out of a cast.

I am no expert swooper...but a decent weekend warrior. My progression has roughly been pd190 500 jumps, 150 spectre 1200 jumps, xfire119 350 jumps, xfire109 300 jumps, and now katana 107. A lot of my judgement is a result of the spectre that is mentioned in the list. And it also saved my femur on at least two (very memorable) occassions.

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Truthfully stick with a semi tapered (sabre 2 safire 2 Nitron etc) while learnign how to swoop they will be a lot more forgiving...and believe it or not you can swoop a sabre 2 170 I did it for 150 jumps...got I watched my friend hippie swoop a sabre1 170 a shit load every day he had like 1000 jumps on it before he decided to downsize to a 150 elliptical and you know what he was consistant...

so before you think you need to go and buy some crazy swooping canopy to learn how to swoop...remember the sabre2 or safire 2 are great canopies to learn to swoop on...shit a 7 cell like a specter or an omega will do its not the canopy its the pilot...

(Does anyone else remember the whole basketball shoe phenom in the 80s where all the kids you were friends with felt like if they got better basketball shoes they could play better basketball????)

Cheers

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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Does anyone else remember the whole basketball shoe phenom in the 80s where all the kids you were friends with felt like if they got better basketball shoes they could play better basketball?



no dude...that was just you. :D everyone else was just doing it for style.

proud to be a 1st Generation Air Jordan Owner - back in the day

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It is a matter of judgement. I think a long recovery arc is where it is at for learning. The big thing is that you need to repect what your canopy is capable of (killing you) and learn to fly it within its requirements.

I think a Samurai (Big Air Sportz) is an awesome canopy to start swooping on. I think it is about like a Katana on the PD scale of canopies.

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I think a Samurai (Big Air Sportz) is an awesome canopy to start swooping on. I think it is about like a Katana on the PD scale of canopies.



I haven't jumped a Sam, BUT if your comparision to the KA is accurate then it is not the canopy to start to LEARN to swoop on.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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yeah...gotta agree.

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The big thing is that you need to repect what your canopy is capable of (killing you) and learn to fly it within its requirements.



Respect is something that is aquired by the experience of starting at the bottom and working your way up. [:/]

My rig has a Katana 107 demo in it as this is being typed. 120 is the largest they make. It is a ground hungry machine that doesn't like tampering.

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Respect is something that is aquired by the experience of starting at the bottom and working your way up. [:/]

My rig has a Katana 107 demo in it as this is being typed. 120 is the largest they make. It is a ground hungry machine that doesn't like tampering.



I am with you on that I demod the 120 last week and I dont like tampering with it I will stick to my crossfire :-P

on a sidenote ... dave I am getting ready to throw down a 666 jump complete with iron maiden as the soundtrack you on?

Skyjunky Dave from sussex
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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666 jump complete with iron maiden as the soundtrack you on?



sounds kinda evil

...count me in. no jumps for me this coming weekend though. peace.



yeah outside of my niece and nephews tandems me niether as I really did spend my rent check last weekend shit...

and yeah definately medium recovery arc :-P

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I think a Samurai (Big Air Sportz) is an awesome canopy to start swooping on. I think it is about like a Katana on the PD scale of canopies.



I haven't jumped a Sam, BUT if your comparision to the KA is accurate then it is not the canopy to start to LEARN to swoop on.



I jump a Samurai (at Brian's recommendation). As far as I understand, it and the Katana share a number of similarities in design and flying style. However, I believe the KA is trimmed significantly steeper. The Samurai is also available up to a 170, and I'm loading mine at 1.2.

I've absolutely no idea whether this is the best progression - I simply don't have the experience to make that call - but I'm having loads of fun and not scaring myself too often :P

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I had a crossfire before I purchase the Nitron a 135 I was amazed on how short the recovery arc is It almost feels like a flare, The problem I see is the 1) you really don't need HMA lines unless you're flying professionaly or competing I had a cut away because of a tension knot and landed rear riser because of a tension knot. 2) The recovery arc is so short that I had to start my 180 degree turn at 300 ft that's pretty low. My Katana has plenty of dive and lighter front riser preassure also love the crossfire similar characteristics. I think a longer recovery arc is better because is safer.



It is because of the Nitron's positive recovery arc that I like it. It fills that gap between Sabre2 and Katana performance levels without the drama and oversteer of a Stiletto. The Nitro I jumped definately was easier to hold in a dive than the Nitron though... it was probably trimmed differently since it also had higher toggle pressure and didn't "feel" like the same canopy at all. Sure the Crossfire or a Katana are better swooping canopies but if I wanted that type of performance, I'd probably give the Blade a try.

I'm not convinced that HMA is any more prone to tension knots (esp when you take care of the lines and pack correctly) than Vectran for instance. I'll never own a canopy lined with Spectra again though but a M4mba or an HMA-lined Katana sounds pretty sweet. The concept that HMA is only for top-competitors though is silly, it's just another type of line and does not imbue the user with any magical swooping ability. That's akin to saying you can only have Z-rated tires on your car if you drive 155+mph every day and take every corner at the limit of traction.

But, to each his/her own... that's why there are so many types of canopies I guess.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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'm not convinced that HMA is any more prone to tension knots (esp when you take care of the lines and pack correctly) than Vectran for instance. I'll never own a canopy lined with Spectra again though but a M4mba or an HMA-lined Katana sounds pretty sweet. The concept that HMA is only for top-competitors though is silly, it's just another type of line and does not imbue the user with any magical swooping ability.



The thinner stuff seems more prone to tension knots but it could also be attributed to the coating a lot of us have. I don't know enough about it to comment with any sort of engineering backing. That said I agree that HMA isn't some sort of magical line. There are varying degrees of HMA (1000, 750, 500, 300, etc) and I believe that choice of HMA strength/thickness is dictated by the goal. For all but the top people 500 or above should be fine and last a decent amount of time. The thinner stuff has a much shorter lifespan.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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The reason I like HMA is because it doesn't shrink up like spectra and change the canopy's trim. I've been a little concerned about tension knots though, because I often have to clear tangles when I walk my lines up to flake the canopy. That's not to say I didn't have to with spectra, it's just the lines and tangles seem to stick together more.

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The reason I like HMA is because it doesn't shrink up like spectra and change the canopy's trim. I've been a little concerned about tension knots though, because I often have to clear tangles when I walk my lines up to flake the canopy. That's not to say I didn't have to with spectra, it's just the lines and tangles seem to stick together more.



Vectran like HMA doesn't shrink so keep that in mind. Just pointing that out incase you didn't know! :)
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Regarding HMA lines, I demoed a Nitro and put 26 jumps on it, it definitely seemed to knot up a lot, and I did have a tension knot on a jump but it cleared. However like they said it may be because of the coating on it. It was brand new and didn't seem to knot up as badly when I packed it for the 20-25th time as the 1-10th.

Also I have a Sabre 2 150 right now that I'm flying. This question was more out of curiousity than anything else. I plan to stick with my current canopy for a while longer. I'm taking a very slow progression, I've got about 120 double-front riser landings, and am only beginning to try turning approaches.

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the nitro does not have a coating, even though they are black it is not a coating.

also, tension knots on that small line type don't tend to clear. and if they do, it is to quick for you to notice.

I am doubting you had tension knots, and if you did, you better get your packing technique looked at.

did you land the other ones that didn't clear?

this isn't sarcastic, but do you know what a tension knot is? if so, explain.

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