Crossfire 2 flight Characteristics Questions

[aneblett 0]

Here is the scoop.

Me: Adrian Neblett
Jumps:560
Canopy Progression: Manta 288, Cruiselite 220, BT 170 (Blue Track), Stiletto 135, Crossfire2 119


I have recently moved to a Crossfire2 119 (used with 50-75 jumps on it) and am trying to sort out all of its intricacies. I have only done 3 jumps on it but I have encountered something that I am not sure how to handle going forward and I I was wondering if anyone else had encountered it.

On one of my initial jumps.. I deployed at 6000 feet so that I could experiment with all of the control inputs. In this instance while making a fairly aggressive front riser spiral, the canopy buffeted once. I immediately ceased input and inspected the canopy, it looked fine. I attempted to duplicate the effect again on the same flight but was unable to. I chalked it up to turbulence and went on with life.

On a subsequent jump I was attempting to do a 180 onto final and the same thing happened about 3/4 through the turn. I quickly glanced up assessed I had a flying wing over my head. Adjusted my landing lane and landed uneventfully (Though I scared a lot of people back at the loft as it made a big snap sound)

2 of our more experienced instructors (though they have no experience with this canopy) were watching me come in and what they observed was that I had actually gotten to the point in that turn where I managed to pull the tail into the mix. let me know if you need further clarification of that explanation...

I think this is more of a concern on this wing cause it seems to be to be a narrower wing chord-wise (hope I have that term right i.e front to back) than anything I have flown before.

So here are my questions, I will probably have more.:

1. Is this simply a control limitation on this canopy, much like there is a control range with toggle turns?

2. One thought would be to lengthen the steering lines but with the flare power so deep on the Icarus canopies, wouldn't this possible put the end of the flare out of reach?

thanks for your help

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[marks 0]

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2 of our more experienced instructors (though they have no experience with this canopy) were watching me come in and what they observed was that I had actually gotten to the point in that turn where I managed to pull the tail into the mix. let me know if you need further clarification of that explanation...

if you pull on your front riser enough to pull the brakes a little, it will do just that. have your brakes loosened up a few inches, ask a rigger how to tell how much you need to loosen them. it all depends on where your stall point is and riser length, bla bla bla.

if you loosen the brakes and it puts your flare out of reach, "stall point to low" then get longer risers.

[TALONSKY 0]

It sounds like your brake lines are too short. When pulling down on the the front risers the tail should not be deflecting down at all.

[davelepka 4]

Jump it again, and do several riser turns without the toggles in your hands. See what happens. Grab the toggles and repeat. See what happens. Compare the results.

You should be able to fully flare the canopy with longer brake lines. You may have to adjust your technique, and learn to flare ALL the way, but it will work. You could also double check all the line lengths, as they do make mistakes at the factory.

As an aside, it was your third jump on a canopy, which did something wierd on a riser turn, and you still did a riser turn close to the ground for your landing? I would rethink the situation, and make an effort to approach things differently in the future.

Edited to add - other posters should take your lead when they have questions. Providing complete information, and an honest assesment of the situation is what will get you a straight answer.

[aneblett 0]

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As an aside, it was your third jump on a canopy, which did something wierd on a riser turn, and you still did a riser turn close to the ground for your landing? I would rethink the situation, and make an effort to approach things differently in the future.

I just thought that I had hit some turbulent air. But your point is valid, and taken.

thanks for your suggestions.

Adrian

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[piisfish 135]

not a rigger, just a Crossfire2 and Safire2 user (and lover).

Do you know if the previous owner had the brakelines shortened ?? There is a reason for these canopies to have long brakelines and very low stall point.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[johnny1488 1]

They way I recommend setting the brakes (fine tuning, it can be different for everyone.)

Do a hopnpop from at least 5k. Make sure no one is in the air with you. keep the toggle s in your hand like normal. Grab the front risers and do a good hard turn. During the turn (and before) look at the tail of the canopy. Do the turn, gradually addig front riser input. At some point it sounds like you are going to see the steering lines start deflecting the tail. See how much more you need to pull the front riser to get the desired dive. You will be able to guesstimate how much brake line you are going to need to add.

As for the longer control range of Icarus Canopies. As you advance in technique, this will be less and less of a factor. As you get th initial part of the flare down, getting all the low end lift will be very easy. If you are a bit slow on the initial part of the flare, it will be tougher. And the 2 or 3 inches you will probably add is not a whole lot when you look at 2 or 3 inches of toggle movement.

The canopy should not be colapsing at any point in the flight. Do some turns like was advised without the toggles also, UP HIGH, and feel the difference in the turn. It will probably be a lot.

Hope this helps. Give me a shout if you have any other questions.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[aneblett 0]

I have sent him an email to find out if he had them shortened...

waiting now.

What length risers were you using when you were flying your xfire?

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[dharma1976 0]

I use 24's and had my brakes lengthened like 5-6 inches when the canopy was almost brand new...(moved in 2 inch increments)..this took care of the buffeting etc...

I have put 150 or so jumps on the canopy

and I think it is time to add some more brake line especially with all the high pull fun I have been doing...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[aneblett 0]

Hmm....

I am on RI standard 19.5" risers...

How long were your risers when you first started wit your xfire? or did you change canopies and risers at the same time?

A

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[dharma1976 0]

I have flown this crossfire 129 with...

18" risers
easy to turn but short as recovery arc

21" risers
fun as hell had to use a bunch of harness to get it to turn easily


24" risers
no longer pulling on risers to turn, harness turns with hanging on front risers in a crunch position

what I reccomend is this try em all and fly what you like man.... some are harder to find around the dropzone to borrow the 18s were a borrow...I own a set of 21's and a set of 24s the 24s are what is on my canopy now...I may wind up putting the 21s on the 119 when I find one for sale and then try the 24s on it...

Cheers and safe swoops

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Rooky 0]

conclusion:
if front riser turns with hands in toggles cause buffeting of the canopy and fronts with toggles left alone don't, the buffeting comes most likely from too short break lines - what's with:
it's definitely not an "break line issue", if front riser turns with hands out of toggles cause the bumping.
am i right? or is break line issue still a possibility then?
no intention of hijacking the thread!

rook(ie)y

[dharma1976 0]

could be out of trim lineset or short brake lines too

have your rigger check your shit out...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Rooky 0]

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could be out of trim lineset or short brake lines too

hmm, surprising for me. but thnx, very interesting!

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have your rigger check your shit out...

Dave

my question came to my mind reading this thread. it's no actual problem i have.
i did one try of a front riser turn with my canopy last season. tried it with hands in toggles and felt the bumping. so i thought "no fronts for the next time, much to learn with rears and toggles".
but now i'm curious. will check out fronts without hands in toggles next time.
needles to say, up high.

thanx and blue skies!
rooky

[dharma1976 0]

or you can hold your toggles in yoru hands

and see how far you can reach forward before the line slack disappears

look up while doing it you will see which ones your brake lines are

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Rooky 0]

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or you can hold your toggles in yoru hands

and see how far you can reach forward before the line slack disappears

you're right. that's a more constructive approach.
i will post the results.

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look up while doing it you will see which ones your brake lines are

yup, i know my break lines checked their slack in full flight already. if i remember correctly it is close to one feet in the center of the bow.

thank you dave!
rooky

[bob.dino 0]

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or you can hold your toggles in yoru hands

and see how far you can reach forward before the line slack disappears

look up while doing it you will see which ones your brake lines are

This is a safer way of doing it. Having your hands out of your toggles isn't a great idea, because it reduces your maneuverability, and if someone else isn't paying attention you could end up in/near a canopy collision.

[mattjw916 2]

Well you're not supposed to do it when other people are around.

The best way to check if your brake lines are too short is to do a hook turn with toggles in hands and then one without. That's the only way your are _really_ going to know if you are causing tail deflection when you make front riser turns. Anything else is just guessing.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Spizzzarko 0]

Gentlemen,

You may want to think long and hard about the practice of taking you hands out of your togles. You should not need to take you hands out of your toggles to determine if your steering lines are to short. With your hands in your togles do your normal frontriser turn up high. While doing this look up and ensure that there is not tail deflection at your maximum front riser input, Most peoples lines are to short for front riser input. This is not the end of the world, but it just makes your front riser input slightly ineffective. This is something that you need to continue to check at lines do shrink rather rapidly. Once you put your hands into your togles, don't take them out unless you are going to cut away.

[mattjw916 2]

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Once you put your hands into your togles, don't take them out unless you are going to cut away.

...but then I can't do that boomerang blindman ghostrider I've been working on.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Spizzzarko 0]

I would like to see that. I'll be up there tomorrow.

[aneblett 0]

thought I would post a follow up...

I did what you said and noticed immediately that almost as soon as i Initiated a riser turn that I would get some brake initiation.

So for the passed few weeks I have been experimenting with different brake length settings.

I have had them at both extremes. On the short end results were as mentioned before and on the long end the lag between where I wanted inputs to initiate and where it did made the canopy seem mushy and difficult to control.

The current settings that I have stuck with seem to offer me the best of both worlds.

Thanks for all the help.

A

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[MrBrant 0]

now you just need a few more sunset hop&pops

[davelepka 4]

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on the long end the lag between where I wanted inputs to initiate and where it did made the canopy seem mushy and difficult to control.

Go back to those settings.It only takes a few jumps for you to adjust to the longer lines, but it lets your canopy fly the way it was designed to.

Let them out just enough to pull a front riser all the way down with no buffeting or tail flutter.

Alot of pilots get used to how the canopy is set up, and then want it to saty that way. Give it ten jumps or so, and you won;t even notice it anymore, except for the clean riser turns, and higher speeds on landing.