crazydiver 0 #26 April 21, 2006 Dude, chill out. The guy was making a joke. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #27 April 21, 2006 QuoteDude, chill out. The guy was making a joke. This guy has made four posts in this thread criticising a canopy he has obviously never even jumped. I understand and share Martini's annoyance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #28 April 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteDude, chill out. The guy was making a joke. This guy has made four posts in this thread criticising a canopy he has obviously never even jumped. I understand and share Martini's annoyance. My personal opinion is that everybody should be forced to learn on old canopies so they can grow a set of steel balls. The Conquest, IMO from personal experience, is a great canopy to grow some steel balls, or at least some badly bruised ones. Regardless, that Sabre is on its way.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #29 April 21, 2006 If your balls are getting injured, you might want to check/adjust those legstraps a bit prior to exit... As for the rest of the people I know with steel balls, most of them have matching titanium parts below the waist. I've jumped canopies _older_ than a Sabre, I just have enough sense not to do it anymore. Good luck with your new canopy, I'm sure you'll have fun with it. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #30 April 21, 2006 Quote My personal opinion is that everybody should be forced to learn on old canopies I disagree. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #31 April 22, 2006 I bet your Nitron opens much better than a Sabre 1, but do you think that you could fly a Sabre 1 of similar loading to the edge of it's performance envelope? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #32 April 22, 2006 QuoteI must say i like my Safire 135 better though. They're awesome canopies... The Safire 135 I've been jumping for the past 80 or 90 jumps is great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #33 April 22, 2006 And WTF would be the point of that!!? That's like buying a Buick and driving the piss out of it when you have a Corvette in the garage. Sure you can drive it at the ragged edge, but it's not as responsive and has mushy controls. I enjoy more responsive canopes with longer recovery arcs that don't require super-human strength to hold in a dive. But this thread is not about what flight characteristics _I_ look for in a canopy it was about Sabres so I digress.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #34 April 22, 2006 Quote I enjoy more responsive canopes with longer recovery arcs that don't require super-human strength to hold in a dive. But this thread is not about what flight characteristics _I_ look for in a canopy it was about Sabres so I digress. Me too. Interestingly my 120 Sabre has far less front riser pressure than my Xaos 98 though they obviously have different recovery arcs. I bought the 120 Sabre for wingsuit jumps although I have changed to a 120 Cobalt. The reason I chose the Sabre was for it's tameness, a good quality in a wingsuit canopy. Since it's loaded at 1.6 though it can build up a pretty good head of steam swooping but it bleeds off that speed fairly quickly. I've also used it for a demo landing on asphalt. Sabres, like Stilettos (i've owned a couple of those too) are good canopies. Clearly they have been replaced by more modern designs with improved opening, handling and landing qualities. That doesn't make Sabres bad, dangerous or unairworthy. Not even obsolete. Particularly if you want an inexpensive and docile canopy.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #35 April 22, 2006 **WARNING: Venting ahead! Sensitive, Brokeback skydivers should use discretion before reading this post.** I totally agree with you, Martini. People believe what they hear and what makes them feel better about themselves. I would guess that 90% of hard openings on Sabres (or any canopy, for that matter) are from poor or rushed packing (that includes line stows people!). Throw in some excessive freefall speeds, some wacky body positions, and inappropriate gear match-ups (big pilot chutes, etc.) and there you have it! Yes, most modern canopies are designed to open slower, but when the Sabre came out, no one was looking for that, in part, because everyone was pulling much lower than most jumpers do today. People were looking for more performance and were used to getting neck breaker openings from the gear available at that time, so the Sabre was actually considered a slow opening canopy when it was introduced. Surprise! When I was jumping everything I could get my hands on to decide what I would buy for my first rig, I made several jumps on a Sabre. Nothing but smooth openings. Ironically, some of the hardest openings I've had have been on Spectres (which I now have the majority of my jumps with) and the hardest to date was with a Silhouette. All were attributed to packing/freefly speed errors, not the canopies. I was the first to point the finger at myself because I absolutely hate packing and I pretty much suck at it. If people would suck it up and take responsibility in the part they play in hard openings & malfunctions, many canopies wouldn't have the reputation they have. 1. I pulled as soon as I went back to my belly from a FF jump, SLAM! Duh. 2. & 3. I rushed a couple of pack jobs, SLAM, SLAM! Duh. Gee, I wonder what went wrong? Was that so hard to do? I admit that I f'd up & I feel ok with it. Confuscious say, "Look within yourself first when things go wrong and then investigate your neighbors." Or, feel superior and safe by blaming the gear that people with thousands more jumps and imminently more time and experience in the sport than you worked years to develop. Yep, it must be the gear... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #36 April 23, 2006 QuotePeople were looking for more performance and were used to getting neck breaker openings from the gear available at that time, so the Sabre was actually considered a slow opening canopy when it was introduced. umm... really? you ever jump much 1980's F-111? With a few exceptions, those canopies open WAY nicer compared to anything ZP, and plenty soft. The older folks out there would back me up on this I think. Best opening canopy I ever owned was a PD-170 9-cell... opened like a dream every time, no matter what. Had a Sabre 135, it opened quick, but not "brutal" or "hard". Except for the 2 times I pulled in a track (duh). Now I have a Sabre2 120. Opens soft but wild. Honestly, if I was a newer jumper I would MUCH prefer even the harder openings of the old sabre to the completely unpredictable openings of my current canopy. I'm with Martini... the old Sabre's a great canopy... you can't get more value for your dollar on your first rig. I also agree with the rant on responsibility. If your canopy opens hard... LEARN TO PACK!!! And the point of driving the buick to the limits before the corvette is so that the first few times you fuck up you do it on a big, slow, tank of a car instead of at 150 mph in fiberglass."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #37 April 24, 2006 I know that I posted my own thread somewhat complaining about the openings on saber1s. But, the caveat is that I didn't have any problems or mind the fast openings till I added a digital still to my camera helmet. Even then I jumped it and didn't really mind. I just don't like the faster openings. If you pack well they slow down but I am switching to using packers more this summer and I am just more comfortable with something opening a little slower. Oh I want a faster canopy too? Yeah. My thread was asking about crossfire 2s. Saying that an old saber has high riser preasure is nuts. I could front riser dive way easier on the saber than I can on the crossfire I have been demoing. Also, learning on that canopy was awesome. I had 300+ saber 2 jumps before I switched to it, then put 300+ jumps on it learning to swoop. I can tell you straight up that I learned faster on that canopy than I would have if I switched right into an elliptical when I went to a 150. It might be old, but it is forgiving. That saved my ass once or twice already. It let me learn a few lessons and walk away. I think that the old sabers fly great. I have no complaints about how they fly. My last jump yesterday was a downwind (5-7mph ish at the most) swoop on a course with 10ft gates, I landed around the 280ft mark. Thats not bad for an old saber with "mushy" controls. With no wind or a slight headwind I can do 140ft w/o everything being perfect. I can also carve 30ish degrees with just harness and still land softly on my feet. Don't say that sabers suck if you don't have experience with one to know if they really do or not. I like how my saber flys... I like how the crossfire 2 flies better,.. but that sure as hell doesn't mean I would have rather learned on the crossfire 2. Learning to fly a canopy that has "less responsive" controls is better. I dislike when people compare canopys to cars because its stupid. You SHOULD learn how to fly on a less agressive canopy. Why? It is both more forgiving and it allows you as a canopy pilot to learn faster and in turn be more agrressive yourself as you grow with the canopy. It has been said a 1000 times before and will be said 1000 times again. You need a base skill set before you push the limits and learn more advanced tricks. Bottom line is, if you don't like the openings fine. Figure something out to tame them or don't jump it, but don't complain about how they fly. The canopy flys great.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #38 April 24, 2006 The title of this thread: "Anything dangerous about a Sabre" hmm, let's see... strapping a few square feet of ripstop nylon connected to some strings to a few straps around your body, then climbing to a couple of miles in the sky and intentionally leaping from the plane with only aforementioned nylon to save your ass... No, nothin' dangerous about that at all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #39 April 25, 2006 You're right, of course. Sorry, I should have said, "some of the gear available at that time." I just get sick of people bashing canopies (not just Sabres) because they "heard" they open hard or experienced a hard opening when they were learning to pack and it probably had nothing to do with the canopy. All canopies can open hard if you don't respect them! It's their way of getting your attention and reminding you who's boss. Have you hugged your canopy today? Fast, it makes perfect sense that you began looking for a softer opening canopy to help put the odds in your favor now that you're jumping with a camera. Nothing wrong with that! I jump a Spectre because it has been forgiving of my shitty pack jobs (hey, I am getting better!) and opens oh so sweet. I'm not embarrassed to admit that I'm spoiled now, so I wouldn't want to jump faster opening canopies any more. At least I don't blame my canopy for my packing learning curve. Oh, and what Beezy said! Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #40 April 26, 2006 QuoteI jump a Spectre because it has been forgiving of my shitty pack jobs (hey, I am getting better!) and opens oh so sweet. Apropos of nothing, my Samurai 170 opens softer than my Spectre 190 ever did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 April 27, 2006 Quote umm... really? you ever jump much 1980's F-111? With a few exceptions, those canopies open WAY nicer compared to anything ZP, and plenty soft. The older folks out there would back me up on this I think. Best opening canopy I ever owned was a PD-170 9-cell... opened like a dream every time, no matter what. That's not how I look back on the PD300 I trained on. I had a long history of bruises on my shoulders near the biceps, on the legs, and my ribs felt a bit tender. Instant openings. First time I went elsewhere and had a fusion (270, I think) and Falcon 265s, they opened so slowly in comparison I started thinking about malfuctions. These days, I hear lots of people suspicious of triathlons for opening characteristics and despite my packing, the only rough openers were when I dipped a shoulder. (or blame boogie packers). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #42 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuote umm... really? you ever jump much 1980's F-111? With a few exceptions, those canopies open WAY nicer compared to anything ZP, and plenty soft. The older folks out there would back me up on this I think. Best opening canopy I ever owned was a PD-170 9-cell... opened like a dream every time, no matter what. That's not how I look back on the PD300 I trained on. I had a long history of bruises on my shoulders near the biceps, on the legs, and my ribs felt a bit tender. Instant openings. First time I went elsewhere and had a fusion (270, I think) and Falcon 265s, they opened so slowly in comparison I started thinking about malfuctions. These days, I hear lots of people suspicious of triathlons for opening characteristics and despite my packing, the only rough openers were when I dipped a shoulder. (or blame boogie packers). The video guy from my 4-way team last year jumped a tri that slamed him almost every jump. It was clearly visible in the video that he was getting whacked. I bet the lines had gone bad. Its harder to be going slower than somone in a camera suit.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #43 April 29, 2006 And WTF would be the point of that!!? It was a yes or no question, but you answered it with another question. My intent was to illustrate that first generation zp canopies of proven design, such as the sabre 1, are capable of more than the average skydiver. QuoteThat's like buying a Buick and driving the piss out of it when you have a Corvette in the garage. Sure you can drive it at the ragged edge, but it's not as responsive and has mushy controls.*** The sabre 1 wasn't a buick when it came out. Actually it's more like getting an older camaro z28 or something because you only have so much money, but being a capable driver allows you to beat a less skilled driver with a new vette on a road course. I enjoy more responsive canopes with longer recovery arcs that don't require super-human strength to hold in a dive.*** Have you ever jumped a sabre 1? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #44 April 30, 2006 Excellent! So, what you're saying is: you're even MORE spoiled than me? Congratulations!! FYI: I wasn't trying to say that Spectre's are the sweetest opening canopies ever, just that "in my experience" my Spectre openings have been sweet (except when I do something completely stupid that not even my kind-hearted Spectre can ignore). Sheesh! In an unrelated topic: Why is that in the rest of the world "mine is bigger than yours" is good and in skydiving, it's not? We are some assbackwards peeps! Ok, carry on. I apologize for thinking out loud... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #45 April 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteI jump a Spectre because it has been forgiving of my shitty pack jobs (hey, I am getting better!) and opens oh so sweet. Apropos of nothing, my Samurai 170 opens softer than my Spectre 190 ever did. You got lucky. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
