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Crossfire 2 Riser Pressure

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So, long story short... I have been jumping a borrowed saber 1 150 for the last year. I am starting to shoot camera and am NOT happy with the openings on saber 1s. Basically it seems like they suck even when I pack and in starting to shoot video I am gonna have other people packing for me more.

I don't have a ton of money, but I do have a saber 2 170 sitting in the closet.

I have no desire to upsize, and buying a saber 2 150 just seems like a waste. I can swoop the saber 150 decent already. I am working on riser transitions from front to rears at this point. As well as overall consistancy.

I do NOT have the money to buy a new container / reserve, probally even if I sold the ones I have. So I need to stay pretty close in pack volume.


That means staying the same size or near to it. To me it seemed like a good time to change planform and thats where the crossfire 2 comes in. It seems like a good option. Probally in the 139 size which I belive will pack into my vector. I had the opertunity to jump one, but only once, this last weekend. I know once isn't enough, however, the opening it gave me was consistant with everything I have read about the canopy.

I weigh in around 185 lbs. So I was loading the canopy 1.47-1.52ish depending on exact rig and my weight at the time.

The thing I didn't like was the riser pressure. I couldn't get the thing to 270. I could get to about 230ish and then it would be just too much to hold the dive. Is this characteristic of the crossfire 2? How does it compare to the Crossfire 1 at the same size?

Now, I only got one jump and a few chances to do turns on it. So it could be very well that my technique is just way off for this type of canopy. In general though I liked flying it, other than the what seemed to be out of hand riser pressure.

My standard initiation for dives is half breaks to full flight to double fronts to letting up slightly on one side and pulling down slightly on the other, and then from there adjusting as the sight picture changes.

I am trying to find a used CF2 139 because I think its what I want, but I don't want to rush into it if I am going to be unhappy with the way it dives.


Anyone have thoughts for me? Is it just technique?




Also, I should note. I can't afford a new canopy. I have to find a used one. I can't change containers, I can't afford it. I also can't keep jumping this saber 150, my neck will kick my ass. I am sure someone is going to say "just buy a saber 2 150" but really,.. I want to progress some towards a more agressive canopy. Changing planform now, when I can't downsize much at all, if any, is probally my best bet.

I also won't consider a stilletto because I don't belive that its flight chracteristics will lead to what I want to fly down the road. After this step that I am talking about right now, my next change will probally be to a Katana 120 or a smaller Crossfire. That is quite a bit down the road though. I just want people to know that my end goal is to be on a crossbraced canopy once I have the skills for it. Which I don't at the point in time. Thats why I don't like the stilletto. Yes I know a ton of people have used them to progress, I just think there are better options.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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is selling the closet case Sabre2 170 an option?

the sabre 2 is a much steeper trim making for a longer recovery arc. It also has a more aggressively tapered planform than the sabre 1. so dont rule it out until you jump one a few times. The pilot also has great openings for camera work but the trim is a little flatter making for a shorter recovery arc than the same sized sabre2.

the Crossfire 2 riser pressure seemed much heavier to me than the same sized sabre2 or pilot. It also has a mega short recovery arc.

PM me for more details.

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is selling the closet case Sabre2 170 an option?

the sabre 2 is a much steeper trim making for a longer recovery arc. It also has a more aggressively tapered planform than the sabre 1. so dont rule it out until you jump one a few times. The pilot also has great openings for camera work but the trim is a little flatter making for a shorter recovery arc than the same sized sabre2.

the Crossfire 2 riser pressure seemed much heavier to me than the same sized sabre2 or pilot. It also has a mega short recovery arc.

PM me for more details.



Yeah, thats the plan. I can keep jumping the saber 150 while I sell the 170 to buy something else.


So you are saying that crossfire has a shorter recovery arc than a saber 2? I am kinda set on changing planform to fully eliptical, but maybe not. From what I saw in one jump I agree that the riser pressure was more. Anyone with experience able to compare it to more advanced canopies? Is this just something I am going to have to adjust to as I get better at swooping?

Everyone seems to say you should change planform and size at different times. This is probally the best opertunity for me to do that.


As for jumping saber 2s. I have a bunch of jumps on the 170. A friend borrowed me the 150 because I wanted something faster and the 170 needed lines. I just never went back to the 170 didn't see a reason to. I was front risering the 170, but I mean, its a 170 so its hard to compare that to anything. Also, I probally have quite a bit more understanding now so. Its hard to compare back to it.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Simple solution is to get Demos in 150 sizes from various manufacturers and do a comparison yourself. all canopies are mega swoopable in the right hands. but the flight characteristics will differ. you will know what you like when you try all the options and make an educated decision.

you may decide the shorter recovery arc is worth putting up with for really nice openings. riser pressure changes as you downsize but so does your strength when you get in the gym :P

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The last thing I would call the recover arc on the Xfire2 is mega short.

PM Dave (Dharma1976). He posted this exact same thing a few months ago when he thought the riser pressure was high on the Xfire2. He now thinks its very very light, and the canopy hasnt changed.

Pound for pound, the Xfire will out dive the sabre2, regardless of riser pressure.

Send me a PM if you want some specific info, I have about between 7-800 Xfire2 jumps.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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Hey, im jumping a 99 xf2 and have no problem with riser pressure. infact i think its rather light. im loading it a tast more than 1.9 so my charistics might be different than yours but i think the xf2 has a nice riser pressure. try also putting a little harness turn into it, with the riser, youll notice a nice difference. that also makes it easier. loading it at 1.4 you should get some decent performance out of it by adding a harness turn and that might make it easier for ya, give it a try. as far as the recovery arc goes, an xf2 has a pretty long recovery arc. quite long for a 9 cell. much more than a sabre, pilot or safire. just a totally different machine. you might also want to look into a safire2. my buddy jumps a 169 loaded at about 1.6 and he loves it. it would be great for video cause the thing boils for awhile. has never had a bad opening, but then again i never did on the xf2 either and i also have a removable deployment system on it. but anyways, like you said, put a few more jumps on it and try it out for a bit. you can also see if anyone has a safire2 you can try or demo one from icarus. give the harness turn a try along with riser pressure and that will be a good starting point too. see ya

chris

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i just read that you do a double front approach. guess the harness turn idea wont work there to help. unless you point both feet twards the ground..... right?;) anyways, im not a big fan of double fronts but we dont want to start a heated debate on that, but anyways if you try gentle 45s and 90s with a little riser and leg turn youll see a nice result. of course try this at altitude a bunch of times until youre comfortable. when youre comfortable give it a try. jump numbers mean nothing to me, its all about being comfortable. ive seen people with a thousand jumps that cant fly for shit but 200 jump wonders flying the shit out of canopies. i dont want to get off topic just wanted to give you some other ideas to try if you feel like you can at your experience level.

chris

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I totally agree with you on this one I had a Crossfire 2 130 loaded 1.85 to 1 and doing a front riser 180° turn I would loose 450 feet. I really do not consider that a mega short recovery arch. Now by no means is it as long as the Katana or any crossbrace canopy, but I would say it has second to tha longest recovery arche in non crossbraced canopies. As far as riser pressure the only thing I have flown that had lighter riser pressure was a Velocity and a Xaos 27 cell.
Kirk

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Technique technique technique....

you know its funny...at first coming from the sabre2 platform to a crossfire 129 I was like woah the riser pressure is heavy...

but what I discovered was that it really has to do with technique...try this and it worked for me really well...

set up your turn in deep brakes...on a crossfire deep brakes is like hip or lower...

then when you are reaching for your risers kick the harness and kick it hard...I am usually like sideways in my harness...then steer the rest of it with your fronts...

I was clearing 1/2-3/4's of the eloy landing area using that technique....

edited to add...I also switched to 24" risers recently so instead of pulling on the risers I am hanging on them while doing a crunch into the harness turn...

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I don't know what everyone else's deal is, I found the XF2's riser pressure to be fine. Its definately not heavy. Its heavier then some other canopies I've jumped, but not something that's hard to use. I don't typically setup while in brakes and I don't have any problems getting the canopy to fly.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I'm with ya there. I had no problems on my crossfire 2 loaded at about 2.0:1. I got great surfs. And as for setting up in brakes...Aggie Dave doesn't do it. I usually don't if I can get away with it. It is harder to fly your set up point, but if you are in brakes, it takes longer to get to your speed in your dive that you could have goteen to quicker if you hadn't slown down your canopy.


Cheers,
Travis

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but if you are in brakes, it takes longer to get to your speed in your dive that you could have goteen to quicker if you hadn't slown down your canopy.


That is one thought to flying your approach in brakes. If you are going to be performing a 270 degree turn you can start your turn from full flight, and get a lot of power out of it before the fronts build up. Another thought would be to fly your approach to turn in deep brakes (not at the stall point) so that when you start your turn you can pull your fronts down further. Now your canopy is starting to dive more than turn. If you set up slightly higher with the braked approach you can slow your turn rate down and maintain your dive. The amount of time a canopy is in the dive relates to how much speed the canopy will achieve. There are several aspects to maintaining a dive but the more you pull the risers down the more the canopy dives.

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Thanks for all the replies and the couple PMs that I have got. I was pretty much thinking that it had to do with technique because there are so many people out there who love to fly them. Getting used to a deployment that takes longer than 300 feet, doesent require a neck brace, and doesn't hurt wont be hard. (Ok its not that bad, but it sure seems like it)

I want to start flying with more harness anyways. I have been working on it somewhat with my saber but well, it just doesn't do much when I throw my weight into it.

I guess I need to find someone selling a XF2 139 now.....




p.s. Marks, you guys coming to wisconsin again this summer?
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Simple physics will tell you that in unaccelerated flight riser pressure is a function of your body weight and has nothing to do with the canopy (other than how it distributes your weight between the front and rear risers). In accelerated flight, however, your apparent weight changes and so does your riser pressure. When your canopy is flying towards you (ie. at the start of a dive) your riser pressure decreases. When your canopy is flying away from you (ie. during dive recovery) your riser pressure increases. The more speed you have generated in the dive and the faster you recover from the dive the more riser pressure will build up. This *IS* a function of canopy size and canopy design. It is also where technique comes into play.

Sabres and Crossfires both have long recovery arcs so they don't have a strong tendency to pull out of a dive on their own. However, a large Sabre will generate speed more gradually then a smaller Crossfire. That makes technique on the Crossfire more critical for managing riser pressure.

You like to start your turn from deep brakes (as I do). Think about what happens when you are in deep brakes and suddenly release them all the way. The canopy surges (dives) very briefly and starts to recover right away. As it is recovering the riser pressure spikes. The trick is to avoid that spike by slowly releasing your brakes and smoothly making the transition to front risers. Also, as the turn progresses you need to make sure that the turn rate and the dive rate do not decrease until you are ready for the plane out phase. This might require increasing control input (front riser and harness) as the turn progresses. Finally, let off the controls smoothly during the plane out phase. A spike in riser pressure here will make it harder to make the small corrections you might need to hit the gates.

ASIDE: What's with the Sabre bashing? Sabres are designed to open fast. Some people consider that a feature. Sabres don't hunt and they don't tend to twist up like the slower opening canopies that snivel forever. For the record I put 700 jumps on that Sabre 150 before I let you borrow it. I didn't have any trouble with it but now it has around 1000 jumps on that line set. Spectra stretches so it is surely out of trim. You should mention that first before you jump on the Sabre bashing bandwagon.

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Spectra stretches so it is surely out of trim.



It actually shrinks more than anything.



Oops, you're right. Thanks for the correction. My point is that a Spectra line set with 1000 jumps will likely be out of trim and this can adversely affect the openings. The anecdotal evidence here supports this conclusion.

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Spectra stretches so it is surely out of trim.



It actually shrinks more than anything.



Oops, you're right. Thanks for the correction. My point is that a Spectra line set with 1000 jumps will likely be out of trim and this can adversely affect the openings. The anecdotal evidence here supports this conclusion.



Sure the lines are fucked. I can live with that. I am sure that is why the openings have gotten worse. I could put new lines on it and it would be back to opening much better. But point in case, its still a saber and like you said they are designed to open fast. I don't want a canopy that opens fast anymore. I want a nice snively one so I don't break my neck shooting video.

The fast openings were cool when we were doing a ton of 4-way but I'll be shooting more video this year, in an attempt to jump more than my finances would allow.

Don't get me wrong,... I like how the saber (even saber 1 yes) flies. I like how it dives, I think its a good canopy. The openings just kick my ass.


oh and... don't think I'm not gratefull for you borrowing me the canopy, cause I am, very much so.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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riser pressure changes as you downsize but so does your strength when you get in the gym :P



Do you think its about stenght ?

I thought strength wont really help you any more after the canopy (that has a short recovery arc) starts to plane out and you are hanging from the risers with all of your body weight. You will just lift your self up closer to the canopy not the canopy closer to you.

Or am I missing something here ?

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