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Purpose-built canopies such as these (Gin Nano's) would not be suitable for dry-weather ground launching as they are much too small. Likewise, a GLX "california ground launching canopy" would not be suitable for this sub-discipline in the strictest sense of the definition of Speed Flying. Too big and slow to keep you on the deck and out of the air.




hahahahahahahaha.... Noob. :PB|:S


I have almost 300 ground launches on 8, 10, and 12 meter "gin nano" type canopies. [Ozone Bullet, Nivuik Skate] With the proper skill, these are superior ground launching gliders. I now teach foot launched speed flying with these gliders. skydivers are great students.

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Holy thread bump batman! :D

Groundlaunching / Speedflying technology has come on a looooong way in the last 3 1/2 years which is when the comments you're responding to were posted.

As for 'superior gliders', it depends on what type of flying you want to do, in what conditions, over what sort of terrain and with what control inputs. Just like in skydiving, some wings are better than others at different things.
Also, just like in skydiving, 300 launches is still in the 'learning' stage. Be careful & look out for your students. You don't know it all yet.

:)


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As for 'superior gliders', it depends on what type of flying you want to do, in what conditions, over what sort of terrain and with what control inputs.
:)




That's the main problem that I have with my nano, the inability to use rear risers for steering. That's the only reason I would ever consider switching to something more GLX like. The nano is pretty much a thicker stiletto, I laid mine out on top of one and they are very similar in shape at equivalent sizes, line trim is a bit different though, and the recovery arc on a 12m nano is much shorter than an equivalent sized stiletto which has a short recovery arc to begin with.

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Most paraglider type speedwings (nano, bullet, nooky, swoop etc) are far more elliptical than skydiving wings, particularly at the nose.

From memory, I think the Jedi was the only skydiving canopy with a large elliptical shape in the front? Someone here will correct that I'm sure!

You're right though, the recovery arc on all of those wings is uber-short. 10's of feet in many cases, and of course you have neither front nor rear risers to input with. On the other hand, they are usually far more sensitive to harness input than many skydiving wings.

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I did not look at the date until after I posted, my bad.:$ still though, the original Gin NANO and Ozone Bullet 007 are still very capable foot launching gliders, I have a 007 in my garage.

The ground launching myself and a lot of others do is the foot launched equivalent of ski flying, the idea being to fly as fast and as close as possible to the terrain. with superior equipment available I don't see the point in flying skydiving canopies for ground launching.

I don't know anything compared to a lot, that is for sure. about 80 of my flights are at my local hill, but the rest are at about 100 different sites, a lot of them never repeated. the 300 does not include ski launches. I also do not count POM Utah for any of those flights. to easy.

these gliders were not meant for any riser input at all short of permeant pre-flight trimming for speed or glide. these are paraGLIDERs, not parachutes and are meant for 100% weight shift and slight brake control.

I have flown GLX and skydiving originated design gliders and they are TERRIFYING for foot launching. exponentially larger recovery arcs and absolutely no range. even for ski flying they don't really fit.

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I just acquired an ozone bullet and haven't had a chance to fly it yet. I'm a little bit confused about your comment about how they are not supposed to be flown with risers. My rig definetely has dive loops sewn into the front risers. Are those just for decoration or are you saying that only rear risers shouldn't be used?

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those are not dive loops, they are handles for the trimmers. [so you can engage trimmers in flight] I suppose they can be used as dive loops, but these gliders do not respond as well to riser input as skydiving canopies. everything can be done with weight shift and brake input as well or better than riser input. it is not a swooping canopy, it is a speed glider.

also, remember that those should be used symmetrically. :):P
landing with only one trimmer in is not that bad, but it gives the glider a noticeable turn and flare stroke is asymmetric.

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and don't feel like I am arguing technique here, If the riser control and diving works for you, that's great. I just have tried a few times and never noticed it to work very well. Older Bullets did not have trimmers, only flat A/B risers. Gin Nano's have forward and rear trimmers, a feature I sometimes wish the bullet had. Usually I am putting to much centrifugal load on the glider to even think about using risers, holding speed though high load is good. even though the static load I like to stay at is about 6.5kg/m^2. some pilots like a heavier loading but their glide and LZ possibilities are greatly limited by much more than 8kg/m

It's hard to flip a glider with risers. :P

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Lots of good discussion here :)
Firstly, for those that don't know, please, please DON'T USE RISER INPUTS on paraglider-based speed wings. They're not designed for it and you'll collapse your wing - usually at high speed and low altitude! Please remember these are different bits of kit than you're used to!

Calvin's right, the loops you see on the risers are for something we don't see on skydiving wings - trimmers. These allow you to alter the trim of your canopy depending on the conditions and really shouldn't be used in flight... it's possible, but seriously not advisable in case you lose a grip or screw up an adjustment.

For the paraglider based models I've flown (Bullet 07 - 09, Nano 07 - 09, & Skate 08), using risers the way you would for a skydiving canopy will seriously injure you.

Wings like the Daedalus GLX, GLS, Aeros Ballistic etc handle more like you'd expect a skydiving wing to - riser inputs are OK, recovery arcs are extended and roll components of brake inputs are reduced. However, they're gererally a little harder to fly close to the earth than 'speedwings' because they're less divey unless you absolutely nail the right wingloading for your wing and terrain.

A lot of this comes down to flying style. Lots of european-based speed flyers come from a paragliding background. Their idea of ground launching / speed flying is lots of short, high G turns on toggles and harness down a mountain that keeps them on the deck. This has them going down a mountain in a relatively direct route from the top to the bottom in a very short zig zag pattern.

My experience is that lots of skydivers prefer a longer pattern with fewer turns, but with glide and altitude controlled by more subtle inputs on risers and harness.

The upshot is the same as skydiving:
1) Trial as many canopies as possible on the terrain you'll be flying most.
2) Smaller isn't necessarily better.
3) Pick gear appropriate to your terrain and conditions.

Remember, you can take your skydiving gear anywhere in the world and it'll be exactly as appropriate there as it would be to your home dz. The sky and altitude don't change.
This isn't true for groundlaunching.


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these gliders were not meant for any riser input at all short of permeant pre-flight trimming for speed or glide. these are paraGLIDERs, not parachutes and are meant for 100% weight shift and slight brake control.

I have flown GLX and skydiving originated design gliders and they are TERRIFYING for foot launching. exponentially larger recovery arcs and absolutely no range. even for ski flying they don't really fit.



it seems to me you have not been flying on really steep mountains?

All of my flights have been on parachutes, i was considering a speed flying wing as they are cheaper and seem to be able to be flown in a larger range of wind conditions.

upon investigation and the dicovery that any riser input would not be a good idea, sent shivers down my spine. The thought of a frontal collapse while flying at close proximity to the ground shares the shit out of me.

Also using only harness input and toggles flying a flat trimmed stiletto with twitch toggles does not appeal to me.

I like to fly on my rears and dive with my fronts just like i do with my JVX, it may mean I have to choose only steeper mountains but that is my type of flying, it will take some years before skydivers and paragliders combine all technologies to make the perfect wing, that caters for everyones needs.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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upon investigation and the dicovery that any riser input would not be a good idea, sent shivers down my spine. The thought of a frontal collapse while flying at close proximity to the ground shares the shit out of me.

Also using only harness input and toggles flying a flat trimmed stiletto with twitch toggles does not appeal to me.



Gin nano toggles are not twitchy. Since the wing was made for speed riding the brake travel range was lengthened so that while skiing, even when you get thrown off balance a bit and make balance corrections with your hand the wing does not buck you too badly.

I can attest from first hand experience that front riser dives will fully collapse the wing. I did some controlled experiments on powder days with skis on, not too high off the deck with rears and fronts and the fronts were way less forgiving than the rears. Double fronts caused total frontal collapse before I was even in a full pull up(then I landed on my feet and skied away so it was all good) My rule from then on was don't play with riser travel any longer than a trimmer is set for, they are only a certain length for a reason.

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it seems to me you have not been flying on really steep mountains?


Been flying all kinds. from barely glide-able ski launch sites to 4000' descents in less than 1000' horizontal distance. All on speed flying equipment.
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All of my flights have been on parachutes, i was considering a speed flying wing as they are cheaper and seem to be able to be flown in a larger range of wind conditions.


yes, I would say that unless you are looking for long parachute like recovery arcs, and terrain following poor glide, then some flights are best reserved for design specific speed gliders
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I like to fly on my rears and dive with my fronts just like i do with my JVX, it may mean I have to choose only steeper mountains but that is my type of flying, it will take some years before skydivers and paragliders combine all technologies to make the perfect wing, that caters for everyones needs.


If you really like riser diving and slow wing response, skydiving canopies are probably best for you then. depending on the model, speed gliders are very twitchy.

ALSO, you have probably been using a standing harness as opposed to a seated harness? if so, your weight shift abilities have been limited by about 80%. I have flown anything from an acro paraglider to a BASE canopy on a stand (BASE parachute) style harness, and the same gliders (including BASE canopies) on seat acro harnesses and it is black and white. I have been completely above a blackjack 260 doing wingovers and attempts at flips. the harness is a big part of the ride.

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Calvin's right, the loops you see on the risers are for something we don't see on skydiving wings - trimmers. These allow you to alter the trim of your canopy depending on the conditions and really shouldn't be used in flight... it's possible, but seriously not advisable in case you lose a grip or screw up an adjustment.

For the paraglider based models I've flown (Bullet 07 - 09, Nano 07 - 09, & Skate 08), using risers the way you would for a skydiving canopy will seriously injure you.



furthermore, the harnesses that these gliders were tested/designed for use on make riser input awkward. weight shift is far superior as far as the flow of control goes, as well as the efficiency of the glider.

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Calvin's right, the loops you see on the risers are for something we don't see on skydiving wings - trimmers. These allow you to alter the trim of your canopy depending on the conditions and really shouldn't be used in flight... it's possible, but seriously not advisable in case you lose a grip or screw up an adjustment.

For the paraglider based models I've flown (Bullet 07 - 09, Nano 07 - 09, & Skate 08), using risers the way you would for a skydiving canopy will seriously injure you.



furthermore, the harnesses that these gliders were tested/designed for use on make riser input awkward. weight shift is far superior as far as the flow of control goes, as well as the efficiency of the glider.


I'll agree with the first, through not necessarily the second point though. ;)

As for harnesses, I've a custom made standing harness. I've tried a few seated ones and personally, they're not for me. Comfort, control and familiarity aside, I still don't like flying close to the ground in a position that puts my spine in a position to impact first if something goes wrong.

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Comfort, control and familiarity aside, I still don't like flying close to the ground in a position that puts my spine in a position to impact first if something goes wrong.



I have thought about that a lot. After doing high load spirals in a BASE harness with a speed glider I concluded that the control and 'comfort'B| I have in a seated ultralight:) zero back protection:o harness is worth it.

Part of this is in the event of un-wanted terrain contact, it's either a mis-judged roll with a grazing contact where energy would be straight ahead and legs are in the forward position to protect spine(in a paragliding harness), OR it's a severe mistake/meteorological phenomenon and an impact as opposed to a 'crash landing', where it does not matter how you hit, seated or stand, your messed up.

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Kick ass stuff, i love it. Where is the site next to the bridge? feel free to pm me.

The wing in my vid is a PD spire 10m, a velocity modded for foot launch really. I have a lot of flights on 120-135 GLXs as well.

I haven't gotten to try the speed stuff from the paragliding side yet. Looking forward to it though.

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Comfort, control and familiarity aside, I still don't like flying close to the ground in a position that puts my spine in a position to impact first if something goes wrong.



I have thought about that a lot. After doing high load spirals in a BASE harness with a speed glider I concluded that the control and 'comfort'B| I have in a seated ultralight:) zero back protection:o harness is worth it.

Part of this is in the event of un-wanted terrain contact, it's either a mis-judged roll with a grazing contact where energy would be straight ahead and legs are in the forward position to protect spine(in a paragliding harness), OR it's a severe mistake/meteorological phenomenon and an impact as opposed to a 'crash landing', where it does not matter how you hit, seated or stand, your messed up.


One of my wings that I regularly fly is a really early Bullet. It flies really nicely, but is uber twitchy and has only 6 inches of brake travel before it snap-stalls. That wing is definately one reason I like having my legs under me! :D:D

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One of my wings that I regularly fly is a really early Bullet. It flies really nicely, but is uber twitchy and has only 6 inches of brake travel before it snap-stalls. That wing is definately one reason I like having my legs under me! :D:D



never flown anything older than a 007, 6" is tight. I wanna fly it!

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If youreally like riser diving and slow wing response, skydiving canopies are probably best for you then. depending on the model, speed gliders are very twitchy.

ALSO, you have probably been using a standing harness as opposed to a seated harness? if so, your weight shift abilities have been limited by about 80%. I have flown anything from an acro paraglider to a BASE canopy on a stand (BASE parachute) style harness, and the same gliders (including BASE canopies) on seat acro harnesses and it is black and white. I have been completely above a blackjack 260 doing wingovers and attempts at flips. the harness is a big part of the ride.



You may be happy being above your canopy in a whippy turn, I like to be flying with my risers only ever using my toggles for flaring or saving myself. With all the forward speed you inevitably get with a steeper trim, you get a really different kind of flight than that of a flat trimmed elliptical wing.

It is true you need big steep mountains to do that type of flying but New Zealand has these places.

I do appreciate the capabilities of paragliders and speed flying wings, but I have thousands of skydives and only hundreds of Ground launches using only parachutes.

After much consideration the GLX130 is still the one for me. I jump a JVX 79 while skydiving so it will be much slower than what I am used to but plenty fast enough, especially across wind B|.

I have played with trimming parachutes by adding an extra set of links on the rear risers for more speed in skydiving and on the front risers for flatter glide for ground launching. I'll see how I go when I get my GLX, I'm fortunate to have affiliation with NZAEROSPORTS - clicky through skydiving, as the GLX ‘is’ more expensive than other wings but it is still the original. It is still the only cross braced wing specifically for foot launching on the market, besides one other that is a copy of a JVX.

The GLX also is the best wing that suits my specific needs; parachutes get destroyed fast as ZP is not so resilient in the hills. It will also keep me safer in my endeavours while participating as it flys the same as what I am used to…

I'm sure over time paragliders will want to go faster and their wings will be trimmed steeper etc. Skydivers/swoopers and paragliders will learn a lot from each other and different new disciplines will be suited to the different styles.

I anticipate many paragliders (down the track) taking up skydiving purely for swooping/speed initially.

Regulation of this new sport is also in its infancy but once it is well established I'm sure it will see an onslaught of new participants from paragliders, skydivers, skiers, snowboarders and any other adventure seeker.

As far as lower harness attachment points go, I haven’t played with them much yet. You are correct I have always used parachuting harnesses.
It seems to me, the higher attachment points would be more suited to skiing? I am yet to have the pleasure of speed 'riding', Always foot launched, although I antcipate it is not so far away until I am hooked;).


I now have a nice harness specific for ground launching which is really nice.

GLH Systems - clicky

They are built with skydivers in mind…

So now I can play with the different attachment points .


I guess in the end there still ‘is’ a difference between ground launching and speed flying? The paragliding communities will have to show some leeway towards experienced skydivers.

For sure the basics of inflating and kiting and all the fundamentals are already established within the paragliding community and some sort of regulation is needed for the benefit of the long term progress of the sport. A paragliding licence should be required but a full progression through large docile paragliding wings that pose more of a threat to skydivers than faster wings of which they are familiar with, should not!

The parachute I am using for skydiving is too small for GL as it would need a very steep mountain indeed to be launched in little wind.

What seems really fast for paragliders may seem docile to some experienced skydivers. It is a problem for those that were initially doing this (bored skydivers) through the differences in the licensing systems, it would suck for skydivers to get the raw end of the stick for having the audacity of developing the sport in the first place.

We all have different needs but are essentially going through the same processes, it is quite a remarkable parallel indeed.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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