Vengeance VS Katana?

[Vertifly 0]

Sorry for the repost...I put this in the General Area too. Someone suggested this to be a good spot for it and it probably is. Anyway....

Looking for some feedback on this if anyone has experience flying and/or comparing the two canopies.

Both would be a 107 with 1.70 loading.

I realize that the Katana has a longer recovery and the Vengeance is stiffer. Sounds like the Katana is much more agressive given the size. My guess is that the performance comparison would make me want to buy a more small Vengeance to even measure up to a Katana of similar size.

Any thoughts on these two canopies would be cool. I'm sure many characteristics are different, but I am looking for a direct comparison.

[headoverheels 291]

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=vengeance+katana&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=score&mh=25

[Shark 0]

The Katana opens better as well.
Possibly the best opening PD canopy I've jumped.

[RMURRAY 1]

search skymonkeyone responses on the subject. Chuck gave the Vengeance a thumbs down. There are a couple of spellings for the canopy so you may find more by mis spelling it in the search...

rm

[robap26 0]

I have over 1000 jumps on a Vengeance 120 loaded at 1.8 and about 40 on a Katana 120. My primary canopy is a Velocity 103.
I found the Katana to feel a little softer (less rigid) and the Vengeance to feel more like the Velocity. The Katana seemed to turn a bit quicker but developed less speed in turns.
Both canopies are capable of laying down nice swoops, even close to the Velocity. I found that the Katana took on a whole new attitude at higher speeds and was very fun to swoop but it seemed almost dependent on that speed and suffered at lower speeds, where as the Vengeance lands great with or without speed.
I do a lot of flying back from long spots so glide in rear risers is very important to me and I feel like the Vengeance will get you further. I also feel like the Vengeance is more stable in deep brakes. I didn't have a chance to do any CRW with the Katana but I can tell you that the Vengeance is a very stable canopy even in very slow flight or with cells pinched off by other bodies. Also, the air-locks really do their job in rough air.
I think both canopies open funny. The Vengeance has a tendency to start off with a nice snivel and then BANG!! slam you into a hard dive in one direction. It doesn't spin up like a Stiletto though. I think this is where the higher aspect ratio and slower turn rate help out. The Katana does a lot of searching and surging and will open off heading often. The whole opening just feels rough and ugly. Although I would not consider it a hard opening.

A few final thoughts. These canopies are both very good and I would recommend either. They are actually very similar, more so then I think other people will admit. If you need a 107 Katana you need a 107 Vengeance also, not different sizes for each. Also I understand that I have a lot more jumps on the Vengeance and I know every little nuance. I really know how to fly it and get everything out of it and I have tried to keep that in mind when comparing the two.

Here is a little explanation from John LeBlanc, PD Vice-President. This is part of an email to a customer who had a similar question about the Vengeance. Keep in mind that John is answering a specific question from a jumper who is just beginning to get his feet wet (so to speak) with high performance canopies, but who has many jumps on a similarly sized Stiletto:
There are several reasons why the Vengeance did not take off as well as the Velocity, some of which might influence you in your next choice of canopies. First, though the airlock concept was very popular when the vengeance development work initially started, interest in the Airlocks dropped drastically prior to the completion of the Vengeance development. People who wanted high performance were more attracted to the crossbraced designs such as the Velocity.

We could have foreseen this trend better had we done more market research into exactly why people who wanted an airlocked canopy more than a Stiletto. There were two different reasons: One, people wanted more dive in a riser turn than the Stiletto, and two some people had an almost religious belief in the ability of airlock to improve safety. Well it turned out that the market saw more performance as being synonymous with "more dive," and they also seemed to incorrectly assume that it was the airlock which created the dive.

Several things happened when the Vengeance was finally introduced. First, we did not believe that Airlocks would totally prevent canopy collapse, so we did not market them that way, unlike the makers of previous airlock canopies. Second, the Velocity made it to the market before the Vengeance, and took most of the high performance market with it. Third, when the Velocity had much more dive and more overall swooping performance than anything else out there, it took the incorrect idea that airlocks create more dive and threw it out the window. Fourth, the Vengeance had more dive than most people transitioning from a Stiletto really wanted. It actually dives pretty close to a Velocity, but with less speed in the dive. Fifth, The aerodynamics which created the dive in the Vengeance also slowed down the responsiveness on the toggles more than initial customers liked. True, it will turn quite fast, but it takes a lot of effort on the toggles compared to a Stiletto which is quite nimble. The market did not accept that very well. Sixth, some customers did not like how the airlocks make handling of the canopy on the ground (after landing in winds) more difficult. Seventh, the Katana has taken the bulk of the this narrow market between the Sabre2 and the Velocity. The Katana is currently only available up to a 120, but it really fills this niche much better than the Vengeance ever did. The front riser pressure is lighter, the rear riser power is better, the toggle turns are more responsive, and the opening qualities are more refined.

So the market for the Vengeance is really quite a narrow one at this time. It mostly goes to devotees of Airlocks, and to people who fell in love with their previous Vengeance and just want another one. Unfortunately, a few Vengeances go to people who are not educated about the canopy's unique characteristics from the current perspective. Several of these customers end up disappointed with the canopy as it did not meet their expectations. For this reason, we would rather discontinue marketing the canopy, especially since the Katana is a much more up to date alternative.

I hope this has helped a bit. You will love which ever one you choose.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I think both canopies open funny. The Vengeance has a tendency to start off with a nice snivel and then BANG!! slam you into a hard dive in one direction. It doesn't spin up like a Stiletto though. I think this is where the higher aspect ratio and slower turn rate help out. The Katana does a lot of searching and surging and will open off heading often. The whole opening just feels rough and ugly. Although I would not consider it a hard opening.

Seconded.

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