Thoughts on CPC 'eligibility'

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The deal is that everyone who joins the CPC and attends at least 3 meets is eligible to go to Colorado.

Hey Chris I've got plenty of respect for the things that you, Jim and others have done for the up and coming swooping community. On one hand this is great news since it takes pressures off of some people and puts more focus on competiting in the minimum number of events (the CPC should be all about gaining competition experience). But what happens when 100+ people show up in September? One could only assume the Colorado people alone will field 20+ swoopers at this event (obviously with 20+ different skill and experience levels). I guess I'm just concerned about completing the competition where variable WX conditions couldn't negatively influence the results only because the field was so big and someone scheduled to jump in a certain part of the day will have an advantage over someone else all because the field was so big.

I like the CPC and think that it likely is the (current) best way to develop competitive swooping amongst us amateurs. The pros outweigh the cons. But what is this discussion really about? What is the CPC? Who should turn pro? How do they become pros? Or how long can a top CPC person be allowed to stay on the CPC?

If someone possesses the ability to swoop pro qualified courses and doesn't routinely scare the judges, then are they, or are they not, ready to compete at the pro level? Obviously I think they need to come up some sort of amateur swooping league where they compete in events and their skills can be evaluated by the more seasoned competitors and judges. But if someone can pass a pro qualifier (maybe the qualifier should be made even harder), then maybe just maybe they are ready to be pros.

Anyway, I'm curious to see where swooping goes in the coming years.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Widgeon 0]

Quoted from your post to the thread on Banning the use of weights:
"but im no longer going to be in the cpc. i would be sandbagging the comp."

I'm a little confused about your comments in this thread; being that they lead me to believe your perspective is quite contradictory to what you've said up until now. You've earned your chance to qualify for your pro card, but for some reason you don't want to yet, ok. What bothers me about a situation like this is the point a few people raised being that you, and anyone else at your competition experience and piloting level, will be potentially taking slots away from the people that want to advance and continue who would gladly run a qualifier to go pro. I mean you already earned yours, so why not allow the people coming up to get their chance as well. You can't get picky about when and where rules need to be changed just to suit your own 'agenda'. You reminded me of this many times when I was trying to get the nine cell division started.

I don't quite understand how the points system works yet, so I can't really comment as to wether or not I agree with you about what you proposed in that respect. Having more seasoned competitors in attendance would always be an asset, but for the learning experience, not direct competition. The CPC after a few seasons would turn into an arena of bad ass pilots that earned a chance to qualify out, but choose not to and stomp the new guys. Nobody expects to have their pro card handed to them, so why the sudden 180?

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Its just that peeps want the peeps that are going to beat them out of the way, instead of stepping up and being a winner.

So come join the pros...Or at least try and qualify. If you don't make it - fair enough, go back to the CPC. If I fail the pro qualifier I certainly plan to (and if I fail it then I obviously need to).

Get your panties in a bunch all you want but not many people support, or are going to support, you in the CPC for another year cause you 'cant afford pro' or 'have your own agenda'.

If you're going to run camps with references to your 'world record swoop' don't expect too many people to feel that you should stay an amateur.

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there is no reason why I shouldnt be in the cpc next year.

Yeah you're right, there's more than 1.

I doubt I, or anyone else, can get through to you so go ahead and do what you want. Just don't expect to get much respect from any of your fellow competitors.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[marks 0]

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So come join the pros...Or at least try and qualify. If you don't make it - fair enough, go back to the CPC. If I fail the pro qualifier I certainly plan to (and if I fail it then I obviously need to).

because I am qualified! so why should I have to qualify?

make me a pro, then there will be no worries. get my point yet? there needs to be a rule change..

ok, here we go. we can add and advanced category to the cpc, 5 footers in direct competition with the amateurs in the cpc. yet are disadvantage is the 5 footers. chris hayes has already proved that this is a working model, and i believe it should be part of the new rules.

.....

talk it up, i think it is a good idea, it has been in play for,,, this is the 3rd year in the flcpa. chris had a GREAT idea when he started this, and i think the CPC needs to adopt it.

[marks 0]

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I doubt I, or anyone else, can get through to you so go ahead and do what you want. Just don't expect to get much respect from any of your fellow competitors.

I dont need your respect. so dont hold yourself to high there.

there needs to be something changed everyone agree's.

I'm offering up an idea, while your trying to shoot me down.

your part of the problem, or part of the solution.

do you like my idea? or do you have one to offer?

[ntacfreefly 0]

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talk it up, i think it is a good idea, it has been in play for,,, this is the 3rd year in the flcpa. chris had a GREAT idea when he started this, and i think the CPC needs to adopt it.

I don't disagree with that at all. I think it has merit and deserves discussion. However, as you so often point out, it's not currently a rule so that doesn't change the ethical discussion we were having earlier.

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I dont need your respect. so dont hold yourself to high there.

I wouldn't care about my individual respect either. But I do care about the respect of my fellow competitors as a collective. There's a difference but as usual you miss the point.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[marks 0]

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I dont need your respect. so dont hold yourself to high there.

I wouldn't care about my individual respect either. But I do care about the respect of my fellow competitors as a collective. There's a difference but as usual you miss the point.

what is sad Ian, is your the one missing the point.

your smarter than this, and you have known me long enough to know how I work. right now, I see you working in a counter productive manner.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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and you have known me long enough to know how I work. right now, I see you working in a counter productive manner.

Mark I may have known you for a long time - that doesn't mean I agree with everything you do. From my perspective it is YOU who is being counter productive here.

I don't doubt that we both feel something needs to change to clear these sorts of things up. Where we have the issue is between what the 'the right thing to do is' and what's 'ok cause the rules say it's so'.

This is still a sport. As such I expect sportsmanship from my fellow competitors. That means, IMO, ethical play, not standing laughing when people have a bad run, and generally trying to have a good time with friends while learning something about them, the sport, and yourself.

Different perspectives I suppose.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Widgeon 0]

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***because I am qualified! so why should I have to qualify?

make me a pro, then there will be no worries.

According to who?

[marks 0]

Ian, you know our goals are the same.

the way we go about achieving those goals is different.

I think my track record of achieving goals is pretty good.

[marks 0]

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***because I am qualified! so why should I have to qualify?

make me a pro, then there will be no worries.

According to who?

YOU!!!!

smartass!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Unless I'm mistaken, last years top 10 finishers have one calendar year to complete their pro qualifier attempt (and there is nothing forcing anyone to actually do it). So all top ten finishers (except Brian) should be allowed to compete in the 2006 season as a CPC competitor. No questions asked. There is no guarantee that a top ten finisher will pass their qualifier. It becomes more of a question of what happens next year and so on.

If someone does not want to be a pro, then how can you possibly force them. But if a top CPC canopy pilot chooses to stay and compete year after year, then they should forfeit their qualifier slot to the next guy down the list who wants it. Plus I've always questioned why amateur swooping has a $$$ prize purse. Shouldn't the money be the domain of the pros? I thought that was what being a professional athlete was all about? IMO, amateur swooping should be about developing as a competitive swooper? If there was no prize purse at the CPC level, then people wouldn't need to worry about guest "ringer" competitors taking home all the dough and it might actually attract more younger swoopers into the CPC ranks?

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ok, here we go. we can add and advanced category to the cpc, 5 footers in direct competition with the amateurs in the cpc. yet are disadvantage is the 5 footers. chris hayes has already proved that this is a working model, and i believe it should be part of the new rules.

I like this idea. In fact is it possible to handicap the scoring somehow where your end score for the discipline will be better if you successfully navigate the 5 foot course, but will get penalized more if your fail on the 5 footers. This way the less experienced or lower competitive risk taker can attempt the safer 10 foot gates while the more established competitors are rewarded on successful completion of the 5 footers but could pay a higher price for failure. It doesn't solve the gear difference issues, but it sounds like a possible way to allow people of different skill levels to compete against each other.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[marks 0]

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I like this idea. In fact is it possible to handicap the scoring somehow where your end score for the discipline will be better if you successfully navigate the 5 foot course, but will get penalized more if your fail on the 5 footers. This way the less experienced or lower competitive risk taker can attempt the safer 10 foot gates while the more established competitors are rewarded on successful completion of the 5 footers but could pay a higher price for failure. It doesn't solve the gear difference issues, but it sounds like a possible way to allow people of different skill levels to compete against each other.

yes it is possible, chris has been doing it in the FLCPA for going on 3 years. i think he has most the bugs worked out by now.

[davelepka 4]

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Anyway, I'm curious to see where swooping goes in the coming years

I think this is the key to this whole thread. If a guy has to place in the top five in his district to make it to the finlas, that means that you HAVE to attend six comeptitions (one of them in CO) and do well in all of them to get your shot at the PST.

How many of the PST guys made it to six comps and placed well in all of them? I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure that it was maybe one or two. All of those guys had an off day, or an injury, or other commitment that kept them from having a perfect record, but thats exactly what an up and coming guy needs to do to get to the PST.

This is why the '3 comps to get to the finals' rule makes sense. I don't think it will blow up the field in the finals beyond a reasonable level. Just as a guess, I'd say the average cost of attending the finals has got to be in the high side of $1500 for travel, lodging, food, entry fees, and jumps. Add in the cost of missed work, and practice jumps (both at home and at the comp) and it's a big commitment to attend the finals.

I think what you'll see is a bigger field, but not the mega-comp you're predicting. What you'll get is the guys who got edged out of last years finals by thier regional placement. Remember that just missing a comp would have been enough to knock a good swooper down the ranks, and out of the finals. In an amatuer leauge, that just doesn't make sense from a standpoint of trying to grow the sport.

Which leads me toward Ian's point. If the CPC is designed to introduce swoopers to competition, and lead toward the PST, you have to provide an outlet to clear the top of the field if you want to encourage new jumpers to fill out the bottom.

If a guy makes the top ten at the finals, they should either shit or get off the pot. If you don't want to go pro, thats fine, continue competing for your own reasons, but there's no reason for you to clog up the system by hanging on to your top spot.

By stepping aside, and taking guest status, you're making the PST more accessable to those guy who actually want to step up to the plate and take a swing.

[ccowden 0]

But it is actually not the guys who aren't "getting off the pot" that are the problem. They would actually be doing exactly what the rules state is acceptable to do. Ethical? Well you can talk til you are blue in the face to some guys and THAT won't get through. Bottom line is, that's the way the system is set up.

The problem is the SYSTEM. The CPC is trying to be too much. They are trying to introduce new swoopers into competition, be a highly competitive circuit, offer prize money, and be the only direct way to go pro, all at the same time. That is just not going to work well from year to year, as is now being seen.

[marks 0]

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The problem is the SYSTEM.

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[ccowden 0]

Dude, don't get too happy. I still think you have a piss poor attitude and set a terrible example for new pilots with that attitude. Ok, so you are following the rules and there IS a problem with the system, but that doesn't make it ok to blatantly take advantage of it for a personal agenda. I mean, you said this: ""but im no longer going to be in the cpc. i would be sandbagging the comp." and now you are saying something completely different. I think it's a case of finding out that it is "cooler" and alot easier to win money when you are the big fish in a smaller pond, rather than a smaller fish in a big one.

I think you might be misunderstanding my points. By me saying that the problem is the system and not the people taking advantage of it, I am just trying to point out that there needs to be some major changes in that system. But setting up a system and then telling people they have to do things "because it's the right thing to do" even though they are completely following the rules of that very system, just is not going to work. Hence this thread.

There needs to be a way for up and coming pilots to get a chance to pro qualify without placing in the top 5 and top 10, IF you are going to continue to run the CPC where there is prize money on the line and there is nothing in the rules to prohibit amatuers to collect it.

[ntacfreefly 0]

Good thoughts and good post Chris.

I do hope that at least by getting this discussion out there that upper management is thinking about the issues more
I hope people continue to contribute thoughts and their own personal positions to it. With any luck it'll help lead us to a solution.

As for Mark ...well, not much more I can say about that.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Spizzzarko 0]

We can all sit around and blame the system, but what is that doing to help matters? Mark, ask your self what you are doing to make the competition scene better for everyone, instead of just thinking about yourself. If everyone had the solo attitude that you have then none of these comps would ever take place, and no one would learn anything. Name a few pro competitors out there. I'm sure that 90% of them would go out of their way to help you out if you asked. Do you have any Idea how much work goes on behind the scenes at even the lowest level of competition? This stuff doesn't just happen.

Instead of us all spelling out how fucked the CPC is we should be asking Jim what we can do to make this a better event for all involved. In turn we must realize that the CPC can not sere everyones personal agenda's, as this is a competition fo the masses. Eventually Jim Slaton is going say: "this is how it is going to be for this season" and that we must suck it up and compete. The CPC is only in it's second year, so let's give it some room to grow. The super bowl didn't have the notoriety that it has now in it's second year (BTW the Steelers are going all the way). In this situation, there are two types of people:

1. Those who do things to make it better for everyone, even if it is a sacrifice for themselves.

2. Those who do things for themselves without any regard to how their actions (or what they are saying) is harming others.

Which one are you?

[marks 0]

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Dude, don't get too happy. I still think you have a piss poor attitude and set a terrible example for new pilots with that attitude. Ok, so you are following the rules and there IS a problem with the system, but that doesn't make it ok to blatantly take advantage of it for a personal agenda.

first off, chris. you dont know my agenda and you dont know my attitude on this situation. please dont judge.

and as for you Ian, since we are name calling and grandstanding. what have you done to help other newbie jumpers?

I work with them every weekend, and sometimes even work with some that are scared to ask you for help because of fear of being yelled at, or talked down to. It seems you let your ego get in the way of what your grandstanding for.

my personal agenda, and this was privetly told to Ian, so I dont see why your still name calling..

my agenda was and is to stirr up enough shit to get this issue looked at closely. it is obvious it has worked. now, Ive also added suggestions, you have done nothing but call me names.

the only time I see you work with peeps ian is when it helps make your ego bigger, and im proud of the fact that I get under your skin, its like a little kids game to me. I jump with newbies all the time, thats all I do. I dont go get on the loads with peeps and shove others off, I jump with and help progress newbies. If you came by the farm sometime you would see what is being done.

the rules in the cpc need to change, we all agree on that. and chris hayes has a way that has been tried, tested and proved to work, and I would like to see it implemented.

chris please post some details on how it would work.

as for the name calling, I can see where the negativity is coming from. your close minded, and unable to hear what is really going on. then you grandstand on how you want to help others up and come, but that isnt what your doing, your just saying it.athough I do see you do it when it is to your advantage, or your ego is being fed. then you slap others like me around saying my ego is to big.

If i didnt stand up and be "the bad guy", you were going to see more than one top 10 guy in the cpc next year.

this is competition, if you say you want to stand aside and help other, then fine, do that. I think it will help them more by directly competeing against them. where they have something to loose if they dont step up to the plate.

Ian, i toild you last year that you should go get your aff rating, the reason I told you this is because you would learn more on how to teach, i thought it would have been a good route to take for you, because you would understand more now on how ego's work in students or people in general. they wil turn on you if handled wrong. and im sorry for calling this out on a puplic forum, but im tired of the negativity and you trying to put me down.

like I said earlier, our goals are the same, it is just how we go about acheiving them that is different.

edit: too long and I got to go so no spell check. sorry.

[marks 0]

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Which one are you?

i think you should read my last post, we posted at the same time, it will have answers for you.

wich one am I,\

hmm, looks like Ive offered up a good solution, do you think it is a good idea? i do.

nobody has offered anything to help correct this but me. in case you havent noticed.<---- not directed at you spizz...

my true intentions for myself this season are to compete in the flcpa. if a pro comp comes around. i will go to it.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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and as for you Ian, since we are name calling and grandstanding. what have you done to help other newbie jumpers?

First of all I'm not the one grandstanding. As for helping other jumpers I do plenty and spend a lot of my own time and money doing coaching for free. If you asked around you'd know that. This isn't, however, about what I or you do for other jumpers.

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I work with them every weekend, and sometimes even work with some that are scared to ask you for help because of fear of being yelled at, or talked down to. It seems you let your ego get in the way of what your grandstanding for.

Mark, the ones that think that are the ones that I tell them things they don't want to hear. If they aren't ready for a canopy then they aren't. Period. I don't want to have your record for putting people into the dirt thanks.

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the only time I see you work with peeps ian is when it helps make your ego bigger, and im proud of the fact that I get under your skin, its like a little kids game to me. I jump with newbies all the time, thats all I do. I dont go get on the loads with peeps and shove others off, I jump with and help progress newbies. If you came by the farm sometime you would see what is being done.

Mark, you are a quite incorrect. I don't publise my help to others shamelessly. I help where I can, when I can without pay or 'glory'. I think it's quite clear here what the real story is. Not the Shimell twist on reality version. Keep talking, it's only looking you look like a bigger ass than you already are thought to be.

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If i didnt stand up and be "the bad guy", you were going to see more than one top 10 guy in the cpc next year.

It never ceases to amaze me how much you'll take credit for. Just like the reason Jay beat the world record was cause of you....remember saying that in Colorado? Seriously Mark, you need help. Either you're on drugs or you need to be. Cause reality and what you see are 2 entirely different things.

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Ian, i toild you last year that you should go get your aff rating, the reason I told you this is because you would learn more on how to teach, i thought it would have been a good route to take for you, because you would understand more now on how ego's work in students or people in general. they wil turn on you if handled wrong. and im sorry for calling this out on a puplic forum, but im tired of the negativity and you trying to put me down.

Mark, you're not calling out anything on a public forum. I have no desire to get an AFF rating and I really don't give 2 shits if you think not having one makes me a bad teacher. Having one hasn't made you a good teacher.

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like I said earlier, our goals are the same, it is just how we go about acheiving them that is different.

No Mark, after this last post from you it's quite apparent that our goals are not the same.

Like others have already done, I'd rather distance myself from you. You're on your own buddy.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ntacfreefly 0]

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nobody has offered anything to help correct this but me.

Bullshit. The first post offered up a potential solution too.

It just happened that it wasn't what you wanted.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[brierebecca 0]

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and as for you Ian, since we are name calling and grandstanding. what have you done to help other newbie jumpers?

I'm going to go ahead and jump in here, just because Ian has, without a doubt, been the most helpful and instructive person at Skydive Atlanta for a long time with regard to swooping. He's given tons of his time to me and other jumpers, teaching the basics and advanced aspects of swooping. To imply that he is not helpful to newbies is absurd.

Brie

"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie

[Spizzzarko 0]

Mark you have your little camp and that is a good thing, but take a step back and look at the overall focus of the CPC. Is it to give out Pro cards? If that was the case don't you think that there would have been more than one given out last year? The cpc's focus is to introduce younger and jumpers to competitive canopy piloting in a controlled atmoshepere that is condusive to learning from more advanced pilots.

I'm sure there are going to be many changes this year in the CPC, as there have already been quite a few. Take for example that people can attend the CPC nationals if they attend at least three out of the five local meets. If they come in dead last in each one of those it doesn't matter, they can still attend, according to my understanding of this years setup. That in it self should be a huge sign that the CPC is not really geared to the caliber of pilots we had show up last year. Think about it... Brian McNenny competed all last year in the pro events and then smashed all of us in the CPC. He ended up getting his "pro card" as well as he should have because he was basicly flying on the pro level.

There are many things that can be done to the CPC, but everyone needs to figure out what the actual mission or goal of the CPC is. Some of you seem to think that the CPC is a stepping stone to compete in the pro class, and yes it can be set up to be a very effective method of producing pro pilots. Others out there adhere to the school of thought that the CPC is for the younger up coming swoopers. This is what I believe the CPC should be geared towards. Again the CPC can be very effective in this mission, but I do not feel that the CPC can EFFECIENTLY achieve both of these goals.

The CPC can be a great thing, but we MUST have a clear definition of it's mission. We must give the CPC a chance to achieve it's goal. If we go and make major changes after every season, then nothing will get accomplished.

Is the CPC not better than what we had before which was basicly nothing? Sure there was the PST, PPPB, FSL, and other nebulous entities that changed monthly or did not have the support to continue to exist, but now we have a national means of competition for EVERYONE!!!!

Grant