Reasons why non cross-braced peeps don't compete

[CanuckInUSA 0]

We've heard it before. People who aren't jumping cross-braced canopies don't want to compete against people who are on the cross-braced versions. Now we know that the competent experienced canopy pilot will do better under the cross-braced wing, but we also know that consistently hitting the entry gates no matter what canopy you're jumping is the key to doing well in a swoop comp. So why is it that some people who jump traditional HP canopies are leary towards competiting against those under the more rigid and yes more efficient wing? Well I'm beginning to wonder if it's because of the money. People naturally want to do well in their respective comps (unless you're the only one in the comp, someone is going to win it and someone is going to finish last). But is it really because these people feel they are throwing their money away? Unless you're on the PST, swoop comps shouldn't be about winning money. They should be about having fun while safely pushing yourself and your friends to get better. So should we be charging big bucks to enter amateur swoop comps and should this money be going to the winner, most likely the guy or gal who first has the skill and experience but who is also under that cross-braced wing?

Thoughts and opinions?

PS: I can't wait for my JVX to arrive ... because it should pay for itself after a few comps ... just kidding of course.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Brains 2]

Steve,
I chose not to compete in the CPC this year but it had nothing to do with the fact that i don't fly a crossbraced canopy. For me it was because i had not been jumping prior to the start of the season and i had just changed wings, i did not feel current enough to be running gates. I DO plan on competing in '06 and it will NOT be under a crossbraced wing. In our first CPC event, I think Yoshi placed second under an Xfire2.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[rhys 0]

i got an email from the WSA and there were polls to see if there should be different events for non x-braced canopies.

and different events for different body weights.

makes sense to me, there are heaps of camera jumpers out there that do 1000+ work jumps a year that fly xfires etc. so the don't get slammed with thier camera gear on.

and the wight thing keeps it more even too.

my 2c

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhino 0]

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But is it really because these people feel they are throwing their money away?

I would have been more than happy to compete under my XF2.. I just don't have the time.. Job,, Wife.. Kids. All that stuff..

[twnsnd 1]

I think that some canopy pilots just don't see the training value of competitions. They feel that they should already be at the top of their game before competing. NOT THE CASE.

Everyone that has ever considered taking part in the CPC should do so. If you are the best swooper at your DZ, you would already know it. The fact is that your skills will increase more quickly as you train for and take part in these events. And they are just alot of fun. Just treat the money you spend like you are buying coaching.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[jeiber 0]

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Now we know that the competent experienced canopy pilot will do better under the cross-braced wing, but we also know that consistently hitting the entry gates no matter what canopy you're jumping is the key to doing well in a swoop comp.

When I was about six years old, I remember fishing with worms and a bobber at the bank of a lake. I caught a bunch of little fish with my Zebco fishing rod. My dad's friend was an avid fisherman, and had all sorts of nice equipment, and was casting way out into the far reaches of the lake, looking for that trophy bass. At the end of the day, I had caught a bunch of small fish, and Mr. Urban had caught only one average size fish. I was jumping with joy, bragging to my dad about how I caught the most fish.

Here I am, 25 years later, again a novice among people that almost seem immortal under canopy. Unfortunately I'm not as naive as I was then. 'Winning' against someone who clearly has more experience and better equipment, doesn't bring the same joy as it did 25 years ago. We're clearly in two different classes, even though we're on the same lake.

Maybe it isn't that great of an analogy, but forget about equipment. Forget about money. I want to compete with people of similar ability, on a level playing field. The CPC is a swoop competition, not a swoop camp. I go to swoop camps to learn and practice, I go to swoop competitions to apply that knowledge and win!

You asked!
Jeff

ps- I'll be competing in the CPC this coming year.

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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So why is it that some people who jump traditional HP canopies are leary towards competiting against those under the more rigid and yes more efficient wing?

Since I'm not going to place high enough the ranking and prize money are irrelevant and I can't gain anything by swooping the course during a competition versus doing the same on any other hop-and-pop with ground video. OTOH, participating in a competition means that I need to cough up the entry fee and get my butt out of my house before the competition starts.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Since I'm not going to place high enough the ranking and prize money are irrelevant and I can't gain anything by swooping the course during a competition versus doing the same on any other hop-and-pop with ground video. OTOH, participating in a competition means that I need to cough up the entry fee and get my butt out of my house before the competition starts

Funny - I learned so much in one year by comparing what I did in certain conditions to what Ian/Shannon/Jay/Cisco did in the same conditions and why they went further/faster.

I learned a shitload and still continue to do so every competition that I attend.

You just have to want to learn then open yourself up to it.

So far what I can see is that people are scared of losing . That, to me, shows ego driven excuses. It's about learning from your peers (or those better than you or even those who aren't as good). Everyone has something to offer. You just have to be watching/listening.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[marks 0]

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I want to compete with people of similar ability, on a level playing field. The CPC is a swoop competition, not a swoop camp.

if you want to be good, or be the best. you have to compete against someone who is better than you. more importantly you have to compete against the best. if you dont, you wont ever be better, or the best..

im going to go ahead and advise all of you that are thinking these ways to come out to the farm to the swoop camp in january. there is so much more that we are going to teach you, other than just flying your parachute.

my goal with this camp is to change your mindset, and help you believe you CAN be, and beat the best.


if you think it is the crossbraced canopy beating you, you got it all wrong. im willing to trade anyone with a non crossbraced "similar sized" canopy, and compete against you. and see who wins.

[Widgeon 0]

How many "similar seized" conventional canopies are out there compared to your JVX?

I'll do it just land off and steal it!!!!! I hope it matches my rig too!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, all of you(Ian, Mark, Steve...) make valid points about the value of learning on the CPC; fair enough and I'll give it my best on every run. I'd be happy to go home from each comp safe and knowing that I flew up to par all day, regardless of who goes home with a trophy or a check.

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my goal with this camp is to change your mindset, and help you believe you CAN be, and beat the best.

I don't know how you're gonna do that, but we'll see. I'll be there in January.

But if this shit doesn't work....

[marks 0]

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How many "similar seized" conventional canopies are out there compared to your JVX

i have a jvx, a vx, and a velo.

if you dont try, you will never get it.

telling peeps they cant do something makes them believe it. im telling you that you can.

but you have to step on each stone in the path.
get excited that there is a curcuit out there that you can compete and be competitive in.

or everyone can just sit on the couch and watch the ones who dedicate get better and better next year...

either bitch about why things suck, or get out there and make youself better. you should all really think hard about that.

and the more you stand on the sidelines watching everyone else do it, your falling farther and farther behind in your progression.

"that isnt compleatly pointed at you mike, i was just making a reply to all".

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I don't know how you're gonna do that, but we'll see. I'll be there in January.

But if this shit doesn't work....

then what, you will blame me because you arent winning?

no shit dude, it is all inside you, the drive the passion and the "want" to be the best. its competition dude, and if your not competitive with who and what you are, then you wont get there.

[LoudDan 0]

I can't think of any reason. I competed all season under a Sabre 2 135. (I even took home a gift scertificate during the season.) Consequently I was the largest only non-crossbraced competitor at the championships. I was also the only red card. But I DID make it, and I didn't finsih last. AND I LEARNED A LOT both at the championships, and throughout the season.

The entry fee in my mind shouldn't be treated like an entry fee at all, I view it as cheap (very very cheap) coaching. All of the competitors ESPECIALLY the better known pros watch everyone, and are always more than happy to give advice and/or insight into what you are doing and how you are doing it. Even if your technique is on point, they can always help with your mental approach.

It's a canopy.......fly it, learn it, and then BRING IT.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Ian hit the nail on the head.

[jeiber 0]

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So far what I can see is that people are scared of losing

[sigh], no, no, no, no! It's not about losing, it's about the challenge and the satisfaction of striving to obtain a goal that's within reach! You, Mark, and the rest of the folks on here are constantly challenging each other, and that's what makes it fun for you. One of you beats (or comes close) the other, and you look forward to the next comp to try that challenge again.

I just don't see the fun/challenge in me competing with you guys at the level I'm at now. I'm really looking forward to competing with LoudDan. He's more experienced than I, and I'm sure I'll be losing to him repeatedly (in the beginning ), but he's a rabbit that I think I can catch. I would have a blast finishing last in every comp, but knowing I performed the best I could, and only needed a few more points to beat LoudDan. THAT'S the challenge - THAT'S fun!
You and Chuck can accuse the thousands of us who don't compete as being too ego driven to chance losing, but I've been playing sports my whole life. I'm good at some, I suck at others. I'm very, very familiar with both winning and losing...
I'm sure I'll be real familiar with losing next year at the CPC! I just hope those with 9 cells and < 1000 jumps come out so we can give each other a good competition!
Jeff

ps- don't agree with ya, but still love ya man!

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[davelepka 4]

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he's a rabbit that I think I can catch

You should be your own rabbit.

I had fun beating some of my buddies, sure, but I can tell you that when I flew a crappy round, if I was ahead of or behind the other guys didn't matter. Where I was in relation to my last round, or the last comp is what mattered. If I wasn't beating myself, I was losing in my book. It about moving forward. If you're going to swoop, do it well.

You'll never win any real money swooping, gain any real celebrity, or even gain any real respect (I'm 100% sure that Jay get as much shit as ever after going 670+ feet as he did before). Your performance is only of value to yourself, and if you have a desire to perform at your best, a structured competition is the best way to go.

[marks 0]

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I just don't see the fun/challenge in me competing with you guys at the level I'm at now.

see, thats the thing, you wont be competing against us. we have moved on. you will be competing against everyone who will join in and do the cpc this year. and most of the ones you will compete against are all these same peeps saying they don't want to compete against us.

well you not going to compete against us..... im sure dan is going to do the circuit. and there are a few girls here in the southeast that said they would like to.

soo everyone who is crying about not having a league to compete in, that is just ridiculous... it is called the CPC. you don't get any more entry level in swooping than that.

and the fact is, since you wont be competing against us. that is only going to hurt you, not help you in the future.

so what im doing next season. im going to go and compete in the pro curcuit so i can challenge myself and others, im going to compete against pilots that are better than me and see if i can beat them. thats how i learn, and i felt that way when i started to compete. always going up against somone better. wich has made me a better pilot.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I know you already deleted the post but I wanted to address it anyway

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Ian, I really don't think you (and Chuck) could be more wrong here. You know I respect your opinion - but the winning mindset has nothing to do with ego.

I think it's the other way around . I think not competing cause you think you won't win has everything to do with ego.

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Anybody who doesn't feel like they're ready for competition swooping, is too egotistical to accept losing?!

No - you're not talking about people who don't want to compete. If people don't want to compete cause they're just not interested then there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is people who say they want to compete but will only do it if there's a category they feel they have a chance to win in (1 eye, 1 leg with Manta class ). I get my ass whooped regularaly in a number of events. Some competitions I've had zero chance of making a comeback and winning. I didn't quit - I just kept on competing and doing my best. I've learned more in the events I've lost (CPC finals is a good example) than those few I've won.

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guess this thread is proof that where you sit on a subject depends on where you stand...

I've stood (and still stand I think) on the same side as you think you do. My first competition EVER was an open class Red Bull event against the PD boys, the XAOS boys, Alchemy, etc, etc. In fact I remember the first 20-25 slots being sponsored and/or full time jumpers in some way. I placed 2nd last yey that single event was an incredible catalyst in my learning (not to mention humbling )

Not wanting to compete is one thing - not wanting to compete cause you think you can't learn anything or won't win is an entirely different thing (ego IMO).

If you're scared of losing then competition swooping isn't for you (figuratively I don't mean you personally). Everyone loses at some point.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skreamer 1]

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You should be your own rabbit.

I had fun beating some of my buddies, sure, but I can tell you that when I flew a crappy round, if I was ahead of or behind the other guys didn't matter. Where I was in relation to my last round, or the last comp is what mattered. If I wasn't beating myself, I was losing in my book. It about moving forward. If you're going to swoop, do it well.

You'll never win any real money swooping, gain any real celebrity, or even gain any real respect (I'm 100% sure that Jay get as much shit as ever after going 670+ feet as he did before). Your performance is only of value to yourself, and if you have a desire to perform at your best, a structured competition is the best way to go.

I'm going to quote that in full, hopefully it'll get read again. That is great advice that can be applied to so many other disciplines and sports. The only person worth competing against is yourself.

"You should be your own rabbit" Perfect!

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[dharma1976 0]

all I have to say is that I watched a guy on an f'ing Lighting enter the Ranch Pond Swooping meet this year, a Lightning competing against Velos, VX's, XOAS's etc...

so go compete...

its about fun and learning and not about winning...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Spizzzarko 0]

My first swoop comp was a total embarrasment, and I got very wet. A lot of people laughed at me, and it hurt my feelings, but I was the only dude with 600 hundred jumps competeing. The rest had thousands of jumps. I had a good time none the less. I still compete now, and people still laugh at me. Ask Ian.

[beergood 0]

This is the same argument with the same people saying quit being pussy's and go compete. Ok I think everyone gets your point that any one can compete and learn. I do not think the reason is money or embarrasment its about trying to compete on a level playing field and having fun nothing more.

Maybe NASCAR should allow me and my Honda Civic to start racing I am sure I can learn alot and not finish last. Its like every other sport go to your local hockey rink and there are 3 or more levels for someone to play at. The same with soccer, football, basketball etc. Because it is more enjoyable to compete with people on your level. Just like its not as much fun to compete against people that are going to spank you ass its not fun to go and compete against people you know your going to destroy either. Funny how someone asks for an opinion and as soon as its given they are jumped on called couch potatos and pussys. I competed on a round and did not finish last. Thats great, good for you. That does not mean its not a good idea to change things from time to time maybe its time to look at a nine cell class seems like every damn manufacturer has the near beer of crossbrace canopies out.

[diveout 0]

Here in the NW CPC we had a guy who attended most of the comps under a Katana 97.

He was having FUN...everyone knew it was unlikely that he would win, however he make some nice turns and beat out more that one competitor during more that one event.

He didn't make 20 hop-n-pop's a week, wear weights or go 350+ feet, but he surprised a few people and had a good time doing it. Swooping is FUN, one need not fly a cross-braced canopy to have fun, even at the competition level.

[vdschoor 0]

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Here in the NW CPC we had a guy who attended most of the comps under a Katana 97.

He was having FUN...everyone knew it was unlikely that he would win, however he make some nice turns and beat out more that one competitor during more that one event.
......
Swooping is FUN, one need not fly a cross-braced canopy to have fun, even at the competition level.

Thank you...

I only competed in one CPC competition this last season due to conflicting dates with other plans.

This year I am going to make sure to make it to all of the competitions... on a Sabre2 135

[twnsnd 1]

1. If all you want is fun, just swoop by yourself.

2. Give us some REAL reasons for wanting to only swoop against people "on your level". Because I believe the real unlying reason is that you are more likely to win, which is ego driven...period. You are not really going to learn from swoopers on your level. You will all be making the same mistakes and flying the same way.

3. There are alot more people out there playing football, hockey, basketball and soccer. It would be like having half the people in town showing up for a swoop comp. You would have to break it down just to keep it organized.

4. Be a man and identify yourself.

5. Couch Potato.

6. Pussy.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[marks 0]

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This is the same argument with the same people saying quit being pussy's and go compete. Ok I think everyone gets your point that any one can compete and learn. I do not think the reason is money or embarrasment its about trying to compete on a level playing field and having fun nothing more

pussy!

either your competitive, or your not.

if you want to compete, get out there and do it.

if you don't want to compete, then don't. it is as simple as that.

you want to increase your chance of winning don't you? then you have to compete to do that, it is so simple, i dont know how to make it any more simple than that.