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Niklasp

Vx and dive/accuracy

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Hi, have a problem, maybe you can help me.

I have a vx109 that I load 2.0. It’s really nice and im getting good swoops on it. But I have trouble whit my accuracy. It’s hard to keep it in the dive and therefore I have to make it just right every time. It seems that the velocity pilots have a canopy that allows them to adjust their dive more easily. I know that it is mostly a question about skill, but talking to folks it I have come to the conclusion that a canopy whit more dive might help me.

Question 1.
Does this make any sense at all :)
Question 2.
I’ve heard that some use a JVX line set on their VX (need new lines in near future anyway)
Is this possible and will it make it dive more?

Question 3.
I really like my VX and the way it flies but is the velo just a better/easier canopy to swoop?

Thanks in advance
Niklas

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answer to question #1, yes your question makes total sense...I've flown a few VX's

answer to question #2. Yes....

get a Velo- You'll never be disappointed. The JVX flies nice, I haven't seen a factory VX with a JVX linese, but I've seen a x-mod (xaos VX) fly. Still not as good as a velo.

-Dan
#2 overall PST advanced cometitor, 2003

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VX .... Still not as good as a velo.



BS bro. It's all about the technique. and you know it.




Then why is nobody on the PD team jumping and winning under a Katana or Stiletto? Technique is for sure important, but there is no question that wing design also plays a big part, and with Velocities topping the podium at pretty much every meet in the last few years, it's getting harder and harder not to admit that it just might be the best HP canopy on the market right now.

Canuck

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Do you REALLY want me to find you people that will outperform "you" on your Velo with their Stilettos?

I'd venture a guess that if you put anyone from the teams under a Katana they will woop your ass. Shoot, may be even under a Spectre.

Dont we know better then to say "My iPod is better then your iRiver"? Until we get to the level of PD (Xaos, Icarus) factory team pilots, we are subject to skill variations. Just like a noob skier buying fast skis, not being able to use their full potential.
SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

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Settle dude - don't let your Velo envy make you a hater. And lets not get into an online dick wagging contest about who would beat me under whatever type of canopy. I should certainly hope that anybody on PDs team could out swoop me under a Katana - otherwise it's time to move the fuck over.

I agreed with you that skill/technique is of the utmost importance, but this continual claim that "it's not the canopy, it's the pilot" lacks reason and logic. Just as in any sport, the top performers are using the top equipment.

It is my belief that the techniques currently being used to post such outstanding recent results are best complemented by the flight characteristics of the Velo. That simple. No where in there is a claim that I personally have fully developed that technique.

Canuck

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uhm... i never said i hated velo. As a matter of fact i quite like it. I am just saying that at OUR level it is of no importance what we jump - velocity or VX.

And still, it is NOT the canopy it is the pilot. Period.
SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

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Didn't know we were talking about "our" level. Since neither one of us has any idea about the others skill, I have no idea what "our" level is.

I pose one final question then. Lets take Mr. Moledski and Mr. Tagle, arguably the top 2 canopy pilots on the planet today. Under their Velos they post very similar number to one and other in most competitions. Now take either one of them and put them up against the other under a Stiletto. From the expected results, can you really still claim that it's not the canopy it's the pilot?

Canuck

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And still, it is NOT the canopy it is the pilot. Period.



True. No need to make it a “with canopy is the best” discussion. :)I was just curios if the velo is easier to adjust the dive on. Or if I can modify my Vx so it dives more. I still like it a lot but my experience tells me that the velo in general is more “easy” to fly. Something I will have to consider if I want to improve my swoops. I still like the vx´s flight characteristics better…up high, carving etc.

Thanks for your advice

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I am guessing that with 1700 jumps over 10 years you are nowhere near the level where you can take the advantage of the "superior" flying characteristics of Velocity. I would bet a jump ticket on that.

LOL you are comparing apples and cherries my man. You missed the point completely, so i will let it go at that.

P.S. Do you know what Tagle was jumping before he got signed by the PD team?
SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

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You crack me up. I said straight out in my last post that I have not personally fully developed the technique which best suits the Velo flight characteristics, yet you want to bet me a jump ticket that I haven't based on my on-line profile. Not that it really matters, but I haven't exactly done 170 jumps a year over the last 10 years. Ah forget it...

Yeah, Tagle was jumping a VX. Does that strengthen your argument? He got a Velo and started kicking ass. I see you jump a VX 111. Was that the one JC had before he also made the switch?

Since you never answered the question from my previous hypothetical question - allow me to do it for you: It is the pilot not the canopy until you get to a certain level of proficiency, and then it becomes the canopy completely. Otherwise it becomes a completely plausible argument that whichever one, Tagle or Moledski, we had put under the Stiletto might have actually beat the other under his Velo.

If you want your jump ticket, you're gonna have to come up here to claim it. It's a long haul for a jump out of a 206 from 11,000. :ph34r:


Canuck

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It seems that you believe the velo to be more forgiving of an imperfect swoop. I really don't know but this may be true. I've seen lots of people swoop velos and they stay in a dive that with no further input would put them into the ground, yet if they pull it out at just the right moment they seem to go forever. The icarus canopies i've seen (and personally fly, though not x-braced) seem to have a more natural tendency to come out of that dive and fly almost parallel to the ground with little input. I guess if you don't have your turned dialed in the ability to sustain the dive till the "oh shit factor" makes you pull it out could be a beneficial thing??

Anyway, as for the "mine is better than yours argument", sports which are dependent on equipment always see these little duels... Trek has won the Tour de France for the past several years, does that mean Trek is the best bike ever, or Lance Armstrong is badass.? Same for motorcycling, yamaha, suzuki, honda, whatever. The truth of the matter is yes, gear does make a difference, but without talent the best gear in the world will do absolutely jack for you. And, that said, gear is constantly changing. Who knows which company will come out with the next breakthrough innovation. For those of you jumping on the velo bandwagon, I'm sure you know that the factory team jumps hma linesets not available to you retail. So, get over your obsession with what canopy will make you fly better and learn how to fly! Sorry for the rant. I know I don't have much experience but certain things hold true regardless of their application.

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Well not forgiving in a “low turn” sense. More like being in the middle of your turn and realising that you are a bit on the high side, and then do “stuff” (more riser(s)etc.) to keep it in the dive so you hit the gate and don’t come in too high.

“So, get over your obsession”… is kind of uncalled for.. all I was asking for was just a specific question about a certain flight characteristic on the two canopies.

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Good post. Your observation of the difference in flight characteristics between the Velo and VX is the same one that I've made.

What seems to be going the distance now is some combination of higher loadings, multi-rotational turns, steeper approaches, and an assisted recovery. In the right hands, the Velocity seems very well suited to that style.

A couple of my fellow Canuckleheads that both did very well at last years WC (Johnny Z, and Pauly) both jump VXs and have both expressed their opinions that they think the Velo is a much easier canopy to keep pointed at the ground. At least one of them, I beleive, is making the switch.

Canuck

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First of all, I must apologize to the original poster in this thread. I did not intend to imply that he was obsessed. As for the bigger dive, bigger turn, etc... At some point won't the canopy and pilot reach a terminal velocity, after which any bigger turn or dive will result in no or little speed gains? At this point the canopy which can stay parallel to the ground for the longest amount of time following such a "terminal turn" will go the distance. Like I said, I'm just learning, but my intuition leads me to believe that with an accurately performed high-degree turn at which little or no input is required for the canopy to plane-out, the canopy with the flatter glide ratio will prevail. I guess I'm repeating myself now, just trying to hash out and understand myself the physics of the swoop so that I may improve myself.

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Yeah, Tagle was jumping a VX. Does that strengthen your argument? He got a Velo and started kicking ass.



JT was kicking ass long before he got a Velo. He is an awesome pilot.

As for everything else goes, I think it is more pilot than anything. JC did awesome under his VX's. Now he is doing awesome under a Velo. Give him some other x braced canopy and I'll bet he'll do.....you got it, awesome.

I also think marketing has a lot to do with it. but thats another discussion. Get what you like.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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I was wondering what I was going to start, sheesh!

I base my original post on the reputation, research and people involved with performance designs as well.

No one can honestly say that any other company has the resources or facilities at their disposal that PD does.

I love my Xaos 21, I've got about 1000 jumps and 10 ground-launches on it. It has a more efficient stabilizer design than my velo, a better lineset design, along with cooler colors, but guess what. If I'm gonna enter a swoop contest I'll have a Velo over my head until something better comes along.

The JVX may be close, only time will tell. For now I'm sure that it's not worth $2500...not to me. It does fly awful nice.

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There's alot more going on beneath the surface on the competition velocity that factory pilots and other somewhat 'sponsored' athletes have access to, that is a given. I would venture to guess the same holds true for other manufacturers as well but no matter. Does it give them an unfair advantage? I would say no... Apparently there's alot out there you can do when you feel your canopy or current rig is lacking in one aspect or another. I've been experimenting with different riser lengths and it made an immense difference in my situation. Chances are that someone else has had the same problem you've had and not everyone had the same solution fix their problem. Different linesets, equipment choices, wingloadings, are all variables that can drastically effect your performance under canopy. Even different turning techniques can produce the results you're after. Not to knock any canopy design, but there is just not one canopy that is the best out there for everyone. It is and always will be the pilot and not the canopy. Just stick with what you've got if you like it and talk to an experienced coach about your problem and I think you'll find your problem will be fixable. But hey, I've only got 400 jumps, what the fuck do I know?

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