0
skajdajver

Airlocks

Recommended Posts

Hi

Im thinking about updating to a new canopy. My current canopy is a Vision 132 and its really a dog to fly.
Now i´ve been looking at the Samurai and the Katana. A 120 or a 107/105.
I would like to know how much of a difference the airlocks makes for the canopy. Does it give it a flatter glide and if it makes it easier to get back from a long spot.
The canopies with airlocks have a larger pack volume. Does that mean that I can use a smaller size Samurai compared to a Katana without the airlocks?

I´ve been searching this website, and have read all the post comparing Sam and Ka. But I cant really find an answer to my questions.

Im not interested in hooking and wont be for another 200 jumps or so. I just want to fly a fun canopy and get fast and turf surfing landings.


Off all things to believe in - why not yourself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Now i´ve been looking at the Samurai and the Katana. A 120 or a 107/105...Im not interested in hooking and wont be for another 200 jumps or so. I just want to fly a fun canopy and get fast and turf surfing landings.


not a good idea... I certainly won't be the only one to say that.

Learn to fly the maximum out of your "bigger/slower" canopy before going to hankerchief size high perf canopies.

don't know your WL under the pilot, but 132 is NOT a big canopy. Even if you are 150lbs at exit.

stay safe. think.:|
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PM Brian Germain, he will give you a no BS answer about what his canopies will give you in flight, and may provide some insight as to whether or not a downsize and change in canopy type is right for you.

Disclaimer:: ask a coach at your DZ that knows your skill level/canopy skills.

take care and blue skies.

Dan
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Check out big air sportz website. It has everything you want to know about the Samurai and the airlocks

www.bigairsportz.com

I fly a Jedei, one of his older canopies and it's awesome for an older design.

there are a few guys jumping the samurai at my dz and I they all rave about them.
Good luck
One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


My current canopy is a Vision 132 and its really a dog to fly.
Now i´ve been looking at the Samurai and the Katana. A 120 or a 107/105.



IMHO it's both more fun and safer to squeeze more performance out of a larger canopy when conditions are perfect than to accept the higher airspeed and control sensitivity when conditions are not good (low currency, small out landing, uneven landing surface, high density altitude).

It's also not a good idea to change more than one canopy size at a time. The perceptual differences in canopy performance between sizes can be substantial at even moderate wing loadings.

Quote


I would like to know how much of a difference the airlocks makes for the canopy.



With the same suspended weight, technique, and density altitude my Samurai 105 sets down the same speed or slower than my Stiletto 120.

But technique makes a bigger difference than canopy type.

Quote


The canopies with airlocks have a larger pack volume. Does that mean that I can use a smaller size Samurai compared to a Katana without the airlocks?



My Samurai 105 seems to pack up just a little smaller than my Stiletto 120.

Quote

Im not interested in hooking and wont be for another 200 jumps or so. I just want to fly a fun canopy and get fast and turf surfing landings.



It's easier and safer to learn under a larger canopy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Im not interested in hooking and wont be for another 200 jumps or so. I just want to fly a fun canopy and get fast and turf surfing landings.



Downsizing to go fast before learning to make what you already have fly faster is kind of dangerous.

There's stigma associated with "hooking" but I've got bad news for you: You can keep downsizing but it wont seem "fast" and "surfy" until you start using your front risers to increase your airspeed. There's a safe way to learn these techniques. Get coaching, and proceed at a pace that's comfortable for your learning curve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The airlocks don't do anything significant to the glide. The Samurai seems to be trimmed a bit flatter than the Katana, but the Katana can fly very flat, to get back from a long spot, by pulling down a bit on the rear risers.

The larger pack volume of the airlocked design doesn't mean that you can use a smaller canopy. These two are pretty comparable, with the Katana providing, in my opinion, a slightly better flare. I like the Samurai handling better on front risers. The Samurai opens more on heading, but more firmly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

I'll try to aswer some of your questions. The airlocks make no difference in glide performance, only in stability in unstable air (turbulence). The pack volume of an airlocked canopy is about 5% more than a non airlocked canopy. That has nothing to do with flight characteristics. So no, use same sized canopy. Hopefully this sheds some light on the matter.

But from your question and your profile (400 jumps, Vision [email protected]) emerges a not so pretty picture. Looking at the Aerodyne website, this canopy is not right for you in several ways. First of all it's intended for Advanced canopy pilots, 200 jumps a year won't make you that. Second the Advanced scale starts with a wingloading of 1.6, which may explain you finding your canopy flying like a dog, loading it at 1.29. Each canopy design has it's upper and lower limits. You are experiencing why.

So looking at the Aerodyne product list you'll have more fun with a Pilot 132. Yes same size, but loaded within design specifications, which can make all the difference for flight characteristics.
Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you'll have more fun with a Pilot 132.
Quote



The Pilot has a lot more potential for HP flight characteristics than people give it credit for, plus its extremely forgiving. IMHO

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Airlock experience-----Vengeance120
My canopy ---Katana120

Airlockers don't open as consistently as non-air-lockers due to being more sensitive to uneven openings and packing errors.
Airlocked canopies are a bit more 'bouncy'' in the air and sometimes give weird loose line feelings in turbulence.
Airlockers are a real problem on windy days as they won't deflate after landing as easily without special techniques.
Airlockers can be a bitch to pack if you're not experienced with them.
The airlocks DO provide some advantages due to increased stiffness of the airfoil. Whether you'd notice these improvement is questionable.

Once you jump a Katana you just don't want anything else for all round skydiving.
Unless you're into hard core swooping the Kat will see you through a lot of skydiving.

Of course make sure you're ready for a lot of extra performance if graduating from a much slower canopy.
The Katana is THE most highly developed standard construction (non-air-locked, non-cross-braced) 9cell elliptical canopy yet ...and no I don't work for PD.... I just recognise quality when I see it.B|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tjena Göran! Vågar du köpa Katanan? den cuttas ju hejvilt över hela landet p.g.a snodd i öppningen:S.

Kan du inte köpa en Demon och sen berätta för mig hur den är att flyga. Den är ju ganska billig iaf...;)

Jag hoppar en stiletto 150 och har provat en cossfire2 129 och en vengeance 120. De små går ju bra mycket fortare i luften men jag surfar minst lika långt med stiletton, antagligen för att jag kan flyga den bättre. Veganen var väl roligast i luften men jag var inte alls imponerad av flären, kan dock bero på att den var rätt "välanvänd" och linorna såg ut att sjunga på sista refrängen. Att den hade airlocks upplevde jag inte som något problem vid packning, men så märkte jag inte mycket av dem i luften heller.

Kul att 42:orna spöade ståkkhollmarjävlarna!

/Jan
Fälls det några elever ur an2:an?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Tjena Göran! Vågar du köpa Katanan? den cuttas ju hejvilt över hela landet p.g.a snodd i öppningen:S.

Kan du inte köpa en Demon och sen berätta för mig hur den är att flyga. Den är ju ganska billig iaf...;)

Jag hoppar en stiletto 150 och har provat en cossfire2 129 och en vengeance 120. De små går ju bra mycket fortare i luften men jag surfar minst lika långt med stiletton, antagligen för att jag kan flyga den bättre. Veganen var väl roligast i luften men jag var inte alls imponerad av flären, kan dock bero på att den var rätt "välanvänd" och linorna såg ut att sjunga på sista refrängen. Att den hade airlocks upplevde jag inte som något problem vid packning, men så märkte jag inte mycket av dem i luften heller.

Kul att 42:orna spöade ståkkhollmarjävlarna!

/Jan
Fälls det några elever ur an2:an?



Euh ????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Airlockers don't open as consistently as non-air->lockers due to being more sensitive to uneven >openings and packing errors.

Both my airlocked canopies jedei105 and samurai120 opens very nice (no cutaways). I did not have a single line twist on last 100+ jumps (on jedei). I would say that is very consistent.:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Get a good airlock design and openings are great ;) My Jedei only spun on me 3 times nad that was due to it being grossly out of trim. My Sam has never given me a line twist. Thats 450-500 jumps with out an issue. There are another 3 jedeis and 1 Sam at my DZ and none have opening issues. The Vengence out there used to always spin up and have line twists.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I put 10 jumps on a Vengence before I got my Samurai - both the same size.

The fact that they both have airlocks is almost meaningless - they have very little in common.

The characteristics I saw of the Vengence were:

Wild openings
Rapid response to toggle changes, ie twitchy
Very poor glide ratio - I always had trouble getting back.
Soft front riser preasure

Contrary to the Samurai:

Soft, on-heading openings.
Toggles are softer on the top half, you need to go deeper to get sharp turns. Definately not twitchy.
Excellent glide ratio - I always get back with plenty of altitude.
also soft riser preasure

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've got about 250+ jumps on a Vengeance 120 loaded at about 1.3 and I think that it is a pretty nice canopy.

My canopy opened pretty well. It would come out of the bag and snivel very nicely, but when it inflated it would always dive hard either direction as soon as the slider hit the grommets. I did a few jumps with a shoe-vue and it really looks like the canopy just doesn't inflate symmetrically with the airlocks, causing a dive towards the slower inflating side. It did this exact same thing on almost every jump. It was never much of an issue... just get your hands on the risers quick to make little corrections and you're set. I have talked to several other Veng owners who seem to have the same problem, as well as several who swear that they have the best openings ever. Go figure.

On toggles it was very responsive... I hesitate to say twichy... I guess it all depends on what you're used to flying. It always had a fantastic flare, and it really had the ability to swoop to a stop. The front riser pressure was relatively soft, but built quickly at my relatively light WL (1.3psf).. It also didn't respond very much to harness input, but it would keep itself in a dive for a pretty long time. The glide ratio didn't seem very bad to me, but it is trimmed pretty steep compared to canopies like the Safire & X-fire.

I've done a couple of jumps on the Jedei and Samurai and I'd have to say that I liked them a little more. The openings were more consistent, and it seemed like it wanted to swoop just a bit longer @ the same WL.

Your results will vary. Have fun & be safe!
Egad, A BASE life defiles a bad age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've jumped 2 different vengeance 135. The first opened absolutely fine, the other one usually started turning or even diving when opening. It just doesn't inflate evenly.
I'm looking for a new birdman canopy, and would jump the first with a bm suit but definately not the second vengeance... Unfortunately the one I might buy is yet ANOTHER vengeance 135 so no clue how that one opens... Maybe I should ask for a discount from my rigger? 10 repacks, 11th one free? ;)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Vengeance is dogsled P.O.S.

Switch over to a Samurai or Jedei. Trae's opinions on airlocks are only true for the Vengeance and not airlocks in general. Of course "the Katana is better". PD held it up in design and testing to be "the canopy" for Stilletto pilots who are looking for something more but not into the crossbraced performance level.

Sometime I'd like to see a Samurai vs. Katana swoop competition. Unfortunately all the swoopers I know either jump a crossbraced or a Samurai.[:/]

Ken
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have 500+ jumps on a Vengeance at about 1.6 WL. The last 100 have been good openings. The first 400 or so I would open in a strong spin every 10 - 20 jumps. Unless you were on the risers in the first few (2-3) seconds after the spin started, you had to unstow the brakes to stop it. A real hassle as it required you to then work the slider down below the unstowed brakes, collapse the slider and work towards the landing area.

Through trial and error and checking everything, what I believe happened on the first 400 openings was that I was packing the Vengeance like a Stiletto. When I moved from my Saber to my Stiletto, I was told, "Don't worry about the nose. Just shove it in the center and don't bother rolling it." That worked for the Stiletto, but the Vengeance is much more susceptible to erratic openings with this type of pack job. I now spend what some would call an inordinate amount of time ensuring the noses of all cells of my Vengeance are lying the same way and that they are even on both sides. This technique seems to have made my openings more consistent and less volatile.

I test jumped a Katana and found the riser pressure much lower and easier to control. The Vengeance did not dive well (It really wanted to plane out. I read on dropzone.com somewhere that someone called it ground hungry. I don't see that at all.) and required my 270ish turns to start at around 400 feet. If I misjudged or started too high, riser pressure grew rapidly to the point where I had trouble holding double fronts to keep it accelerating/diving. Test jumping the Katana I found it easier to adjust the entry to a landing.

The bottom end on both seemed to provide exceptional range and even with minimum wind was able to shut them both down. Again, only about 10 jumps on the Katana, but I am looking forward to playing with it.

The Vengeance was a PITA after landing on windy days. I used Brian G's technique, start with the front risers and turn it into a tube, but it still tended to be a struggle to get it off the LZ; more so than anyone without airlocks.

I ordered a Katana and am glad for the experience on the Vengeance and hope to build on it. But I will not miss it, I don't think.
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not true!My little swptwing jedei97 opens like a dream every time.I have not jumped the samurai or the katana yet,but hear great things about both canopies.Have also heard great things about the pilot.Brian is a no nonsense kind of guy and would give you the straight poop on his canopies.Be safe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0