So who is interested in swooping, but afraid to post? promise,nobody will bite..

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ask away.
questions?

what do you want to know?

[Spizzzarko 0]

What does it take to get into the zone?

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What does it take to get into the zone?

sorry dude... but the answer is IAN!

no but seriously, there are peeps that read this but are scared to post because they will get ripped...

well i know i will try and help and so will Ian, and you are awesome at pointing peeps in the right direction....


DUDE!!!!! there is no zone!

[Spizzzarko 0]

You know there is something that I really want to know about. It's the climbing of your canopy to get more distance. We don't always see the latest and greatest here in Co. I would really like to know a little more about this technique. Also I would like to know more about what you gus think about using weight. I fly a 103, I weight 220 with gear, and I strap on 16 lbs for the speed rounds, (I get times of 2.5-2.3 seconds (2.5 being my slowest with out wind), my closest competition get's times of 3.0 seconds, and he's flying a 90 velo) but I havn't experemented with the weight on distance rounds. Have yall tried this or not for distance like the big boys do?

Grant

[kansasskydiver 0]

Ok I'll post my question, maybe I'm just crazy, but it's happening more regularly now on my canopy...

I call it the seek and destroy mode. Xfire2 149 loaded at 2.0/1 or slightly lower. 800+ jumps but by no means an excellent swooper. Long carves ranging from 270+ in degrees. Never a snap hook etc.

Most of my landings used to be leveled out high, canopy would lose all it's speed and then, what i consider a stall, and slam me down on the ground. I've learned what this feels like and when i level out high (better than low right) I go to double fronts to build back up some speed and just land as usual.

Lately though I've dialed in the approach, harness shifts, lining it up with my target and not as many aborted runs, I can feel the canopy max out on a steep 270 or 360, double front to hold it on it's line, then it seems to just lock and fly where ever it wants to fly until it slows down a bit. I understand the principal of target fixation and thinking you're turning when you're not, but I swear my canopy locked for a second and wouldn't turn until it slowed down. By turning I mean, in my flare, harness inputs, slight toggle inputs.

So no one believed me when it happen, then a week later it does it to me again and there were witnesses to see it. I'm banked left, left toggle down, canopy flying straight and level regardless of the input I'm giving it until it loses it's power coming out of the corner or whatever you want to call it...

My problem, I'm the most experienced canopy flyer at the dz, small college club, don't have people to read off of, and it's just stumped me. I figured out the "stalling" out and upward problem was from throwing my body slightly infront of me coming out of my carves, thus changing the center of gravity and the canopy creating lift and then catching up to me, but this seek and destroy effect I can't figure out.

So call me crazy, my canopy is in trim, nothing wrong with it, and it only happens when i'm hauling balls. Can someone explain this phenominon (i can't spell), and I'm open to critisizm, but please believe me when I'm saying that it just doesn't respond for X ammount of time until it slows, in my head it's seconds, in reality it's probably half a second or less, but it's a lot of ground on a no wind or downwind day in KS

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[trigger 0]

Were you landing cross wind or possibly in turbulent conditions.

Assuming your not unbalanced in your harness.

I find my crossfire is very sensative to weight shifts more so at speed.

I have the same canopy and the only time i need to add extra imput,left/right toggle,is when landing cross wind or landing in turbulent conditions.
Keeping the wing flying straight and level!

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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You know there is something that I really want to know about. It's the climbing of your canopy to get more distance. We don't always see the latest and greatest here in Co. I would really like to know a little more about this technique. Also I would like to know more about what you gus think about using weight. I fly a 103, I weight 220 with gear, and I strap on 16 lbs for the speed rounds, (I get times of 2.5-2.3 seconds (2.5 being my slowest with out wind), my closest competition get's times of 3.0 seconds, and he's flying a 90 velo) but I havn't experemented with the weight on distance rounds. Have yall tried this or not for distance like the big boys do?

Grant

ok, so on a vx, land with a slight downwind, if your slightly in the corner, you get on the rears to power out.kinda slings your body forward, not really the best way to go with a vx because when you power out of the corner and your body gets ahead of the canopy the angle of attack on the vx will cause it to natually climb, ive noticed this does it more in dowind situations. but then again ive got alot to learn, i was kinda hoping for less technical questions from somone being a beginner, your about on the same level as me so bear with me.

on a velo, it doesnt necisarally climb on its own, but really you kinda are in the corner and use the rears to shoot you forward, ive been playing with this slightly for a year, and am by no means real good at it... but anyways. on a velo you power out of the corner and just get to the point where the canopy whants to start to climb slightly then slowly let off the rears and let it fly untill it starts to loose alt. then start into toggles. the angle of attack on a velo is steeper than a vx so it doesnt really do it naturally, but with enough speed and you hitting the sweet spot "wich isnt easy" only got it a couple times myself. it will climb a little. especially if your loading VERY heavy. because your body "the pendulum" has so much momentum.

this is all from me watching others and seeing the distances and from me trying a few things... it is VERY hard to get it perfect, and i refuse to load my velo that high because of my currency level... if i was ALOT more current then i would play with it a little more..

when me and ian would do 2 way landings he would always bitch that i was low. we load the same and he is on a bigger wing, he would be up and behind me and still would bitch that we were low. i was like DUDE... we were still a little high!..lol....

i think he see's it now though....

help me out with this ian...

HANS? chime in...

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I call it the seek and destroy mode. Xfire2 149 loaded at 2.0/1 or slightly lower

your overloading that canopy, in my opinion.

ive got alot of jumps on a original crossfire, 99sq ft.

and the only different i really notice in it and a vx at a similar size was the shutdown at the end of a surf.

the vx didnt bowtie at the slower speeds and stayed a more solid wing to get my body slower before touchdown.

this problem your talking about, i have noticed with a crossfire, but not just a crossfire. at high high speeds it becomes dificult to controll. harness isnt as responsive due to so much lift and air across the wing that you cant really shift the harness. the controll range on a crossfire is VERY deep compared to alot of other canopies, especially p.d. canopies. but i dont know much about the katana yet. ayways. if your at high speed and you try to controll it with toggles. it is hard because the controll range is deep and your speed is so high your toggle pressure is also high so you dont get into the toggles hard enough to really controll it..

also it sounds like your too low from what you explain. im guessing with that wing loading on that canopy your turn should start at 750+ ft. but thats a guess,.. you should be out of the turn and on heading in a dive long before you have to get in the toggles or rears to plane the canopy out. after the turn the canopy willl continue to build speed even diving straight forward, due to its sharp angle of attack...

[ianmdrennan 2]

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when me and ian would do 2 way landings he would always bitch that i was low. we load the same and he is on a bigger wing, he would be up and behind me and still would bitch that we were low. i was like DUDE... we were still a little high!..lol....

I'd bitch cause I'd have to change my turn style cause we were lower than my style allowed, but mostly I'd bitch about your shitty erratic pattern

Back on topic though. I know what you are saying when you refer to the corner Mark, but we recently had another post similar to this that create confusion so I'd say instead of corner I'll say slightly lower than your canopies natural recovery arc (Yes even a velo has one
On the issue of weights I agree with Mark. I don't load up more than 2.1 - 2.2 because I don't do 1000 dedicated swoops a year wearing 2.5 or higher. Not to say I won't in the future, but remember the original distance record was set at a 2.1 loading. For most of us there's no need to go higher right now and if done badly (which a lot of people now trying to load like that do) they'll be easily outswooped by the lower loading.

Spizz - I generally don't change my weights from event to event because of the reasons stated above. In time I might start playing with it more, but there are other factors I need to get right first.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

It's a pretty big wing. The effect of input takes a second or two to react (particularly noticable on bigger canopies). Remember there's a significant amount of weight under that wing that has to change direction. I'd expect that's all you're encountering. So, play with it up high and see how much more input you can give to get the desired result before taking it low to the ground.

Edit: I do my 270 around 700 feet (or lower) on my velo 90. I don't think Mark's altitude assessment is accurate for the 150 x-fire but you shouldn't be worried about X altitude anyway as factors change all the time that effect initiation altitude.
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

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You know there is something that I really want to know about. It's the climbing of your canopy to get more distance. We don't always see the latest and greatest here in Co. I would really like to know a little more about this technique.

It depends entirely on the conditions for the day. The stronger the headwind the less you use (maybe none at all), the stronger the downwind the more you use.

It's a balancing act, like everything in skydiving, that works well when done well but will ultimately sacrifice distance if done incorrectly. This is something I am seeking more coaching on myself.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Spizzzarko 0]

You do your 270 at 700? I would have to whip one around pretty quickly up here from that altitude. 800-900 is more like what I have been using up here, for a slow long turn.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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You do your 270 at 700? I would have to whip one around pretty quickly up here from that altitude. 800-900 is more like what I have been using up here, for a slow long turn.

Yep, but the alt's you are throwing out are around where I'd expect to have to do it up there in CO.

When I go to Z-hills it scares the crap outta me cause I start in the mid to low 600's!!!
Gotta love density alti

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ok, I'm beginning to understand the theory behind it now. Thanks for clarifying. Mark thanks for the advice too. As far as the weight goes, In our first CPC it came to the speed round, and I was sizing up the competition. Most of them had considerably smaller canopy's than I had, and I thought I was going to get blown out of the water. So I decided to grab a buddy's weight belt, to try and get some added power. Well it worked out. I brought my loading up to about 2.4 on the 103. I scored 2.45 seconds, and the next closest competitor scored 3.0 seconds on his 90 velo. I don't know what he was loaded at, but I know he was wearing some weight too. Another thing, was that I was able to fly the entire course on rears, and he either flew in toggles or had to tranfer a lot earlier. I think having the bigger wing helped me in that account.


Mark,

Are you flying the velo full time now? Did you have a few frustrations changing from the VX to the velo? At first I really didn't like the Velo compared to the VX, because I was used to the VX, but now I'm learning the velo more I really am liking it quite a bit. It seemed the Vx was easier to go far with, but it feels to me, if done properly, the velo will go much farther than the VX.

Grant

[Spizzzarko 0]

I was having a hard time at Rantoul last year. All of my turns were in the stratosphere, when I first got there. I figured it out after a while.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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All of my turns were in the stratosphere, when I first got there. I figured it out after a while.

I heard at least one of them was underwater and no where near the stratosphere

Sorry....couldn't resist. It's like my own personal little ZONE comeback

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

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Are you flying the velo full time now? Did you have a few frustrations changing from the VX to the velo? At first I really didn't like the Velo compared to the VX, because I was used to the VX, but now I'm learning the velo more I really am liking it quite a bit. It seemed the Vx was easier to go far with, but it feels to me, if done properly, the velo will go much farther than the VX.

velo full time now, if you want to call it that. im not current at all...

i had the same experiance. they are both great just different. im just now starting to understand the velo better.

the vx did seem easier to go far with, and i like the vx over water better.... but you have to dial it just right. the velo does seem to carry speed better, but it is harder to dial it in for the distance, but it is easier to swoop water with, exept for any goastrider moves.

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It depends entirely on the conditions for the day. The stronger the headwind the less you use (maybe none at all), the stronger the downwind the more you use.

actually it seems in downwind it happens MUCH easier. more naturally.

doesnt really happen much with a headwind.

[Spizzzarko 0]

OOOOHHHHH You so funny GI!!! Actually that was pretty freakin funny! Swoop 402' on every jump and you are a decent swooper... Crash into a pond once, and you are labled an aquanaut for life.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Why do yall think your canopy is more sensitive at high speeds? Do you think it has to do with the wing loading?


Here's my thoughts on it. Frist off the wing loading doesn't affect the sensitivety at high speeds. The sensitivity is caused by having a much faster airflow over your wing. With faster airflow over the wing, you need less input to achieve a desired effect. Now as you slow down you will need more input to achieve the same effect. Let's take a swoop for example. After you do your turn to final, you have a lot of speed. Have you noticed that you don't have to flare very much or very fast to get your canopy to plane out? It's because you have all this air speed flowing over your canopy. Now let us continue the swoop. The further we go the more we need to flare, to create enough lift to keep us off the gound. The more we are flaring the more we are slowing down. This makes us have to flare more or faster, than we did in the begining of the swoop. Do you understand that? Let's take an F-15 for example. If the F-15 used the same controll inputs at mach 2.5 as it did when it was taking off, the aircraft would be ripped to shreds.

Now let's look back at the wing loading issue. Every canopy has an optimal wing loading. If you go beyond that wingloading, you will start to lose performance. When I say lose performance, I mean that the canopy will have to have more airflow over it to create enough lift to keeps it's load off the ground. Also it becomes more sensitive to controll input. Any wing can be stalled at any airspeed. The more it is loaded the easier it is to stall at a higher airspeed. I have a friend that Fly's a CHAOS 27 78' canopy. He loads it close to 3.0, and he lands with toggles. It's impressive to see him land, as he comes in very very very fast, but he doesn't get a very long swoop. Some one asked him why he doesn't land with rears, and he said it just stalls his canopy. Even though he is approaching mach speeds he can still stall the canopy at those speeds. Does this clear things up any?

Grant

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Crash into a pond once, and you are labled an aquanaut for life.

Don't you worry - with the elevation in CO, I'm sure I'll take a swim or two in the drink. Hopefully it's in practice or not at all though!

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Spizzzarko 0]

They give me shit because they all love me! I keep telling myself that.

[Brains 2]

Ok I'll bite.
From someone who is not a swooper, but would like to start competing in the CPC next year, what is the best way/method to set up a training program for themselves?

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I would say the most important thing about the CPC is to go in with an open mind, and learn as much as possible. The second thing about CPC is to not Vert, and to NOT strike any coursemarkers. If you fly cleanly then you will be ahead of 50% of the competition. To learn this, Set up a 10' entry gate, and possibly make them a little narrower and shorter than what the rules call for. Fly through the gates on every jump. Do not miss a chance to hit gates. Move the gates daily, as you can get very used to the visual qlues if you just swoop the same thing everytime. There are some great beerline swoopers, but some of them suck at hitting gates.

Most importantly you need to learn when NOT to go for the course or the gates. I have seen many many people push a bad setup, and put themselves and other people in jeopardy. If you are not comfortable with a setup, then abort. If you are going to have to fight traffic then abort. A good swooper can make the gates most of the time, a great swooper, knows when to not make the gates.

[AggieDave 6]

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im guessing with that wing loading on that canopy your turn should start at 750+ ft. but thats a guess,..

You're right, a guess, not right on the altitude.

I'm on a XF2 149 loaded at 1.9:1, I do my 270 at about 610ft. I do a quicker turn then I think KansasSkydiver my not be using the same rate of turn, but even with a "slow" approach I used to turn at 670ft.

I've never in my 400-500 jumps on my XF2 experienced this "seek and destroy" mode. If anything, I love it when I just nail an approach, hard and fast, then I'll lay to the left to the carve then back to the right to carve back the other way. I love the speed and feeling of carving when hauling ass. Just a bit of harness and just a little rear riser (or toggle, which ever you prefer) and my canopy is off to the races. To answer the next question, no I'm not deflecting the tail during the turn.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."