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yoavr

Swoop technic - Rear raiser & Toggels use

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Hi there !
I discussed with a friend about swooping and we raise a Q:
Why to go while swooping from rear raisers to toggles ?
My friend said that as he tested - the rear raisers give the most distance - with minimal speed impact. I said - the pro are going after the rear to toggles - there a reson for that ...

well - what do you say - why to go from the rear at the start to the toggles at the end ?

10x

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it would help if you fill out your profile, so that any reply can be tailored to you. i.e you may have 50 jumps in which case you should not be experimenting with rear risers landings (without prior coaching & supervision & condition dependant & type of canopy & a million other things like experience), and you certainly shouldnt have anything to do with swooping. If however you have a few hundred jumps, then you should already know why this is.

In short (grosely simplified) when using rear risers on landing you are not killing much speed, so unless you want to run, you can go to toggles to finish of the swoop and slow down.

Warwick University Skydiving Club

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I filled it out...

I'm not asking here because I want to try and do it (also i do... ;)) - but it about understanding the "Physics" ...

(The other jumper has 3000 jumps)

and to refine my Q:
If a pro swooper want to get the most out of his canopy for long distance swoop - will he(or she) use raisers only or is he (or she) will go to toggles after starting the swoop with rear raisers ? - and why ?


For general info - my first rear raiser land was on my 16 jump !!! (Well - new assembled container - and as I took the toggles - one stays in my hand - no line connected - and I decided to land it...)

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take into consideration my jump numbers before taking this as fact but to my knowledge:

the pro's do use rears to get the most distance with minimal impact on their speed, but while using rear risers to swoop your canopy will stall at a much higher speed. so once they get close to the stall point of their canopy on rears they switch to toggles to get that bottom end lift and go that extra distance. using the toggles is like when a plane extends its flaps a little prior to landing, they may create more drag and slow you down but at the same time they are creating more lift which will allow you to stay up while going slower.

i have no personal experience with rear riser landings, nor do i plan to get any anytime soon, i just ask a lot of questions when talking with my canopy coaches and do a lot of studying. And if there is someone else with more experience reading this please verify it or correct it if need be.
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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my personal technique is to use the rears as long as possible until the lift is lost and the canopy is about to stall, then I switch to toggles for two reasons.

1st, it gives me a little bit more lift which allows me to "carry" further, just that little bit of extra distance before I have to put my "landing gear" on the ground

2nd, it allows the canopy to slow down for nice soft landings. In a lot of the "PRO" videos, you will see people sacrificing their bodies to get that little bit of extra distance. In competitions, they are wanting to get as much as possible on the distance rounds.

I guess the best way to answer the question at hand is this: It is like playing a round of golf. You look at what the wind is doing and decide if you need to add a little bit of spin this way or that to acheive the desired effect for what you are wanting to do. Swooping is the same thing. There is no set techniqe for any given jump. You just have to do what ever it is that you have to do to get things done the way you want it done. It all comes down to experience.;)

I hope that this helps a little, as to why people do different things. Personally, I can land my canopy on rears or toggles, but if I am going for distance, I am wanting to keep it flying as long as possible before my feet touch the ground.

Sam
Live today as tomorrow may not come

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10x

I still want a Physics answer - like GQ_jumper gave.

but as for your answer - if you keep the rear as much as possible - as you need to switch to the toggles - you need to give a lot of input (go deep on them) and this pass is quit brutal (well - my canopy sound like explosion when I did it) - is this true ?

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I think this is a great question.... I finish with my risers (no transition to toggles at the end). I have watched a lot of people do it the other way and have never been able to understand why... I load my Katana 120 right at 2.0/1 and have yet to bust my A** on a landing (with or without wind) when landing rear risers (and yes I understand its just a matter of time till I do).

Like you said early on.... I'm sure there is an answer, I just don't know (but sure would like to) what it is.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

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yes, for about 1/10 of a second there is no control input on the canopy because you are letting go of the rears to take up slack on the toggles. This allows the tail to go back up momentarily and the "popping" sound you hear is the canopy snapping from one extreme to the other. This isn't going to hurt your canopy or anything, but it does happen just like you said.

keep practicing different things and find what works best for you. Keep one other thing in mind as well. There are as many different ways to describe things as there are people describing them, so be careful about what you read and then go try. Someone's explanation might not give the same "picture" to you as the person describing it.

Sam
Live today as tomorrow may not come

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I finish with my risers (no transition to toggles at the end). I have watched a lot of people do it the other way and have never been able to understand why...



You're giving up distance on your swoop. The stall speed with your rear risers is higher than the stall speed with your toggles. when your rears run out of lift, and you put your feet down (or if your feet are sliding, when you put your full weight on your feet) you're traveling at a speed higher than the stall speed of your toggles. If you would make the transition to toggles, you could swoop further before putting your feet down.

I experienced this several times when I was first starting to use rear risers. I found that if you're quick, you can fly the rears into a stall, and make a quick shift to toggles only losing 10 or 12 inches of altitiude (I could pick up my legs, and not touch the ground). Anyway, I found that after making the transition, I had enough speed left to pop back up 12 inches, and keep swooping for another second or two). This isn't the way I fly it all the time, but it was useful in the begining for determining the stall point of the rears in a swoop. Now that I know where that limit is, I can stay away from it (mostly).

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the pro's do use rears to get the most distance with minimal impact on their speed, but while using rear risers to swoop your canopy will stall at a much higher speed. so once they get close to the stall point of their canopy on rears they switch to toggles to get that bottom end lift and go that extra distance.




Negative. Take a look at some video from a recent pro meet. For some reason, Tagle comes to mind as a person to watch. His transition from rears to toggles is very early in his swoop - not when the canopy is on the verge of stalling.

Nobody is trying to go the distance solely on rear risers. Watch from the side sometime. What you will see is that the entire canopy starts to get pulled behind the pilot as more riser input is added and airspeed reduced. Transtioning to the toggles allows the canopy to get back overhead.

Final thing - done properly, you don't hear that "pop" that someone mentioned when transitioning to toggles. That generally comes from waiting too long on rears and then stabbing the toggles.

Canuck

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I am not questioning your experience in any way here. but I have found that I can go further by flying to a "near stall" on rears and then "popping" the toggles for a finish out. Granted, when doing this, I am turf surfing, not doing the "pop-up" technique trying to go for all out distance.

I understand why you would want to switch to toggles if you are popping up on a distance round. It gives more lift and you more than likely don't want to stall on rears when your boonkie is 20 feet from the ground either;), as well, you can "feather" the toggles while gliding down after popping up.

This is just my experience, I am in no way saying that my way is the best. It just seems to be working for me is all.

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Alright my .02.
I agree with Canuck, and after conferring with Scott Miller, the dude who coaches the stars, I 'understand' that a transition from Rear Riser to toggles EARLY on results in a longer swoop....ON MY CANOPY (VENGENCE) This is easily identified by video of my landings, I 'feel' more speed on rears all the way, but in the end, I sacrafice distance by maintaining too high of an angle of attack ON MY CANOPY when langing solely on rear risers....
That being said, the guys at the top of the comps, aren't neccessarily flying 'FACTORY' canopies, like the ones you and I can buy on the screets....so MAYBE a top competitor goes ALL THE WAY on rears, but could that be because his wing is SET UP for that??? So, to get the longest SWOOP, you need to get coaching on YOUR wing, hope that helps. I really just wanted to say hello to Mono Uno :)
Later
Blair

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***"so MAYBE a top competitor goes ALL THE WAY on rears,"
Neg. Take a look at tagles dist. record and you will see an early transition to toggles. My personal 2cents: use the risers at first to conserve speed then the toggles to make! it! float!
Also re: the "popping" ...that's just the sound of an agressive transition from riser to toggle. It really doesn't have to be that way.
If this sounds a little airy fairy then I'm sorry but : Your canopy is moving thru a fluid. There is a 'flow' (airflow) and that flow has a 'rythm'. Smooth, consistent flying requires an understanding of the airflow over your wing AS WELL AS a feel for the rythm of that flow. ;)feel the rythm doood:)It is poss to squeeze just the right amount of lift from the risers so that you can gently put them back to the top and then even wait a while before going to the toggles.... :)
You could choose to fly the risers to the end or not touch 'em at all or you could choose to transition to toggles at pretty much any point. :S c'mon guys,
No right - no wrong - just flight! I wonder how far we'll go;)
Damn i love this sport!

'Makeitlfoamakeitfloatmakeitfloataaand-uhmph!!!'
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

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How we approach things is often the key: there may be a better way of looking at it. You are looking for an absolute , difinitive answer but it really depends on too many variables to say :
how are you loaded / how much speed did your turn generate. how much input did you need after the dive / how much energy did that cost you / are you jumping 9 cell or 7 cell / how old is you canopy / do you have a removable deployment system / density altitude / humidity / what are you wearing / how are you built / heavy on top, light on the bottom or are you legs like tree stumps / how heavy are you shoes really :P Ok I'm getting stupid but you get the idea.
your biggest asset is your awareness/ experience/ training/ openess and willingness to keep learning.
Do dedicated canopy jumps from altitude and learn to truly fly your parachute everywhich way possible.
there is no secret miracle swoop recipe out there.
hope this helps. ;)
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

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So if I understand you correctly:
Every swoop start by 270 turn from 623 feet
when you are 10 feet from ground you go for the rear raisers for 12 sec then you switch to toggles.
You end up standing after 643 feet.

Did I got you ???


;):PB|:D:ph34r:
B|B|B|

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here is a condenced version of swooper-x's response. the more speed you have the longer you can stay on rears. the smoother the transition from rears to toggles the better. the only way you know where to transfer from rears to toggles is by experience, there is no calculations for it as it changes every swoop.
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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;) But if you want to get an extra couple feet and make it a 650 ft swoop, begin to relieve your bladder/bowels onto the passing ground at around the 200 ft mark. However, be sure not to use the grass/pond for wiping purposes to get those last dingleberries off, as the judges will mark this spot as your touch down point!>:( ...not to mention those pesky sand spurs that are sticking out of the ground could HURT! :SB|

Cheers!

--Jairo
Low Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam!

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When I started skydiving, I was under the impression I was gonna need a lot of balls so I had mine replaced with titanium ones .B|They're rigged with a cutaway system controlled by my sphincter :|: Now everytime I start on the rears the G's build and If i get it just right - POP!!!!:ph34r: I drop a nut , level out and Yehaa! ! ! I can clench a little and drop the other one as I go to toggles, but thats really top secret stuff and I had to have my scrote radically modified. :S
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

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When I started skydiving, I was under the impression I was gonna need a lot of balls so I had mine replaced with titanium ones .B|They're rigged with a cutaway system controlled by my sphincter :|: :S



:ph34r:B|:ph34r:;) LOL
Swooopa-x! you made me cry with your post! :S:ph34r:
There is a necessity to have Titanium Balls you mentioned (we call DIAMONDS here...!) especially for those who started swooping (including myself) :P
It's so wonderful we think and act the same way all around the globe!
Wish to swoop side by side one day.. :D

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