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davelepka

B. Germains WL chart

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Why getting your canopy to the performance limit, are you not bringing yourself to the danger zone? This is maybe cliché but are you getting the max performance out your car? I do not think so, why pushing your canopy to the limits as you can fly an other canopy with the performance you want



This where you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on.

Flying a canopy at 100% of it's limits is not pushing the canopy. The canopy will not skid off the road, or flip over, like a car pushed too far will. If flown properly, flying a canopy to it's fullest potential presents zero operational issues for the canopy.

It does however, get you used to the speed at which things happen. When you downsize, you may be going that speed, when only realizing 50% of your new canopies potential, which you may be able to do on your first jump with the new canopy.

You can't compare cars to canopies. Yeah, if you want to hang a curve at 75mph, it's better to be in a car that could do it a 100mph, and only be at 75% of the limit, than be in a Hyundai with the tires peeling off the rims.

Car aren't canopies, and if you can't fly your current wing at 100%, downsizing is just asking for trouble.

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What do think the future holds? You admit you feel your Wl is aggresive, why not do something about it?

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Well i dont know what the future holds but obviously there are some tests waiting out there (there always are).

I say my WL is aggressive from stats i have seen or random discussions i have heard not from my own actual performance though.

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Upsizing is done all the time. Lots of guys upsize AFTER an injury, so tey can ease back into things. Is this really the time to upsize? How about before the injury, and preventing the injury all together?

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Honestly i dont know if i will upsize at this point but i do know one thing though. I have realised that the is an urgent need for me to get onto a canopy control course. I have plans to sort that out early 05, and from then i will make a further informed decision. In the meantime i have Brian's book on order and it should be in my hands soon.

Thats what i intend doing in the immediate furture along with trying to maintain a steady attitude.

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Here's the thing, whoever told you that you are fine, beleives that you're OK due to their impression of your skills, garnered from their exposure to you under canopy.

None of this can account for all the situations will encounter. With this in mind, your safest choice will be inline with the reccomendations of those who came up with suggestions based on the 'general' population, not based on a case-by-case consideration.

By using one persons (or even a few peoples) opinion on your perticular situation, you are assuming that you are an exception, not the norm.

Furthermore, the fact that you would have to ask, or that someone would feel the need to comment, indicates that your choice may be outside of the norm.

I haven't asked if I'll be OK under any canopy, nor has anyone volentered that I'll do fine under a certain canopy in a long time. Why? Because anything I jump is inline with what I (and others) expect I can handle, no questions asked.

You may be an exception. Won't know for sure until it's hindsight, or possibly, too late. There's no way to argue with that. I hope that it's the former, as I don't want to make an example out of anyone, but coming up with reasons why NOT to stick with the mainstream and play it safe, (reasons which all are based on possibiblites) is foolish.

Additionally, it adds fuel to the fire that keeps things like the proliferation of such a WL chart down. Wouldn't a better course of action be to back such a plan, even if you personally don't intend to follow it? If you truely beleive yourself to be an exception to the norm, wouldn't you want to see all the 'average' canopy pilots out there have something to hang on to while trying to come up to your level?

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Talent doesn't exist. Flying a canopy is just moving your arms up and down. The trick is getting your brain to make the right choices.


Right, and playing the piano is just wiggling your fingers. As good as your contributions usually are, this kind of logic is just to simplistic to be taken seriously.
As with virtually every other activity, physical or mental, some people will have better predispositions for becoming good canopy pilots and some won't. Some of the latter would still manage to get hurt despite following the chart. I think a combination of education and regulation would work much better if you wish for all to be safe.

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I do understand your point and appreciate it, but we will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not the infamous chart should be used as a guideline or a rule.

In the last 4 months, in almost 100 jumps, with most of them being under Sabre2 190s, Spectre 190s, and my Safire 189 I have only had one late-flare that resulted in nothing more than some grass-stains on my pants and a good laugh later at the bar.

BTW, my H&P this morning in El Paso had a nice, uneventful, straight-in landing.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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By using one persons (or even a few peoples) opinion on your perticular situation, you are assuming that you are an exception, not the norm.

Furthermore, the fact that you would have to ask, or that someone would feel the need to comment, indicates that your choice may be outside of the norm.



He's flying a 189 at 1.1, with close to 100 jumps. That's not exactly busting the spirit of the chart. And it's hardly outside the norm.

If anything is to be questioned, it may be the reserve choice. And reading the thread in Gear about reserve weight limits, it seems like a lot of people are going well over the 1.1 expert recommendation from PD for their F-111 reserves.

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I used to fly a stil.107, I can tell you, it did pushed it once to far. My canopy was going over it's limit's like you can do with a car on the road.

I was looking for some more speed in my canopy and man, I can tell you, after a 360° on frontriser my canopy was stalling, you read it ok, it was stalling and it was not that my stearing lines where to short, no, there was a V-shape in my canopy the moment I want to flare. My wingload was 1,8 on the canopy and there was almost not wind.

I do agree that jumpers downsize to fast now but I still stay with my idea that it is better to fly your hpc canopy with a good wingload at 75% than A low wingload at 100%, it is the 101% what can give you problems so wy flying always at 100%?
The chart as guideline is good, jumpers with not a lot of jumps stays that way in a canopyrange where they never will outperforme the canopy but on the other side, where is the learningzone when you have to fly a conopy where you cant learn with?

A FreeFly Gypsy

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Ok, flame me...honestly, do!
i thought i should´nt be entering this...but now, I do...I´m way off the chart, but did fine what´s so ever, i´ve jumped a Spectre 150 with 150jumps @wl 1.5, jumped several canopies (including Stilleto´s, Vengeance and XF´2s) after that with about 300 to 500 jumps @ Wl of up to 1.9...and thats is what I jump right now with just a little over 700 jumps!
According to the Chart I should´nt do so...I understand...I appreciate that "something like" a guideline is presented from someone with a very good reputation is out there... I read the book, I learned a lot, I try to stay save, maybe I´m out of the norm or just lucky, I don´t know...I feel comfortable putting my canopy (XF2 119 wl 1.9) in your backyard...done that once or twice...and swooping it through the pond and being able to keep myself dry (except my shoes)...ok, sometimes I´m not as accurate as I wanna be, but still ok!
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Here's the thing, whoever told you that you are fine, beleives that you're OK due to their impression of your skills, garnered from their exposure to you under canopy.


And for that...what if I told you that JC told me personally that I´m good with what I´m doing...which was trying to get some good accuracy doing 270s???
I don´t mean to say I´m just another hot-shot, "nothing´s gonna hurt me" type of guy...´cause I got a close call that same day and Dan B.C. talked to me quite intense about taking care of myself and not ruin the nice day, and he was totally right, no doubt!
I wanna stay alive and don´t hurt myself, I love live to much to be stupid and take chances where there are none!
I don´t wanna sound like a total dick..but maybe I do, but everyone has the right to do as they wanna do!
It´s difficult to get my point across...I just wanna say it´s good that we watch out for each other...but still...everybody has to take the chances he want´s to give himself...some give themselves realistic one´s...other´s don´t...but who are we to tell them off?!?!
I do believe that everybody is responsible for everything they do, that includes choosing a canopy at every wl they desire! Although the people selling them that canopy are responsible telling them not to do so if they think it´s not ok...but what more can you do? The only option is not to sell it to that person...but then again, if he or she want´s it...there´s nothing more to it than telling them, again, they are responsible for themselves, you should learn that with the first jumps you do...pack, jump, pull, stay alive, that´s the thing´s you learn from the beginning! Everybody has the right to execute this behavior just the way they feel right about it!
Who are you to tell somebody that he should´nt do this or that...we are free to execute our right, no matter what, even if it includes our right to die..as long as you do not endanger someone else...who the f*** cares..it hurts, even if i don´t know you, but you have the god damn right to do so and i´m not gonna blame you for it!
Maybe I´m just a stat waiting to happen...I accept the risk, I´m aware of it, I know that I´m maybe gonna hurt myself badly one day...this is my risk and I´m willing to take it for the fun I have and I wanna keep it as calculatebale (does that word exist) as possible!!
Otherwise, I do agree that educating jumpers about the risks involved in jumping hp canopies is a very necessary thing to do...even more it´s a requirement to every educated jumper...but still it´s everyones own choice what they do...
Sound´s hard, but hey, live´s hard.. if you don´t recognize you´re own limit´s you won´t get old..Darvin´s where ever you look!
And you´re land is the one of the free...at least that´s the last I heard of!

i´m sorry if I offended anyone, that´s just what I think about "absolute" charts....nothing more and nothing less...
You never know until you go....!
Stay save, keep clear and live!

I know about the "land of the free"...but please just think about that...you´re contradicting yourself, but that´s a different story and a different thread..sorry!

Just one last question...what or who got you to start this never ending discussion??? Something must have happend to get you really upset! I´d really like to what!

cheers!
------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

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Talent doesn't exist. Flying a canopy is just moving your arms up and down. The trick is getting your brain to make the right choices.

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Right, and playing the piano is just wiggling your fingers. As good as your contributions usually are, this kind of logic is just to simplistic to be taken seriously.



I think you're taking what I said out of context. BASIC canopy flight is that simple. Case in point, all of the first jump students I have talked down. If they listen to my commands, they will land softly, and on target. They provide the muscle, I provide the brain power.

The level of jumper who needs to be referencing the chart is engaged in just that, BASIC canopy flight. The act of controling the canopy is as simple as can be, it's having the judgement to deciede where to fly, and when to fly there, that comes into play. That judgement can only be gained through training and experience. During the process of said training and gaining that experience, you need to make safe and conservative choices for the things you can control, such as your canopy selection.

Granted, HP canopy fligth is a different story. Hand eye coordination, depth perception, balance, and reaction times all came into play when making an HP canopy pilot.

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I'll use this oppertunity to resond to your opst, as well as Matts reply to me post.

I don't know Matt, or whats he's flying. It doens't matter. The whole premise is that if you follow the guidelines set forth for the general public, you are making a safe, conservative choice. Any attempt to stray from that, is banking on some sort of feeling that you should be exempt from those guidelines.

Furthermore, Matt's situation isn;t relative to the fact that he is resistant to the idea that everyoen should follow the same guidelines. I come back to my core argument. EVERYONE pulls at 2k or above. It is possible to pull lower, and be fine, but it's not doen (intentionally, or by smart people). If EVERYONE would cool their jets, and follow the guidelines, opencanopy incidents would be reduced, and I'm sure that we would be producing a higher quality of canopy pilot.

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I hate to pull rank on you, but I am sure there was an issue with your canopy.

I have 2500+ jumps on two Stiletto 107's loaded at 1.8 up to 2.0. I regularly do 360's for my landings, and have NEVER had a problem.

This is a fact: If your canopy is in proper trim, and assembled correctly, flying it a manner consistant with good canopy piloting cannnot result in a failure of your canopy to perform as expected. You simply cannot make a canopy go faster than it can handle. Yes you can induce a high speed stall with improper control inputs, but thats not what were talking about. Were talking about a jumper learning to get the most out of one canopy before moving to a faster one. Getting the most out of the canopy would involve flying in a manner with the above mentioned good canopy piloing.


Furthermore, a canopys max speed can act as a limiter to how much trouble you can get in. If you cannot, or have not flown your 120 at 100%, why then would you want to jump a 107 where you might possibly nail your turn, and reach 100% of that canopies capacity, only to have your experience limited to 75% of a 120? Now you are in over your head. If you had stuck with the 120 longer, not only would have nore jumps, more swoops and more experience, you would not as far out of your envelope if you should hit that 100% on your smaller canopy.

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Dude, I'm sorry, but I couldn't even read your whole post. As you can see this thread is keeping me busy, and my eyes are starting to glaze over.

My point is simple. Everyone who has been hurt did not think it would happen to them. Nobody knows who will be next until it's too late.

The solution is for EVERYONE to slow down, and follow a progression. If you look at the chart, after 1000 jumps, you're free to do what you please, which is good, because I love being over 2 to1. It makes my day. If everyone would folow the chart, and not think they are an exception, we would have fewer incidents. It's that simple.

Once again, it seems that for that last 2000 jumps, I could have pulled at 1k all along, and been fine. I didn't because years ago, we figured out that that was cutting it too close, and problems COULD result. When problems DID result to frequently, they laid out a BSR that nobody questions anymore.

Well now, we are seeing that canopy flight IS a problem. It is the number one killer of skydivers. So lets do something about it, lay out some guidelines, make it the 'cool' thing to follow them, save some lives and limbs, and move on. The awsome thing about these guidelines is that they reward your experience with ever higher WL's. The min. pull alt. doesn't change if you have 1k jumps, it stays the same.

It's a fact that SOME people are getting busted up under canopy. Who's next? I don't know, so lets protect EVERYONE for now, and play it safe.

If you personally are going to pay attention, I don't know. But can you honestly say that this is a bad idea, and that arguing against it in a public forum will benefit anyone?

Oh, this got started becasue I see the same incidents happenig over an over again. Not to mention I live in Ohio, where it just started to snow. The less I jump, the more I type.

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I hope this doesn't come across as complete agreement;

The minimum opening altitude BSR; I bet you know people who take it low more often than others, some because they actually enjoy it and some because they don't care. And I'm sure some of them would be opening even lower if it weren't for the rules. They might not question them, but they're not really hot about them either.
Similarly, I don't see how wl regulations could ever be made the cool thing to follow for everyone in this sport- I think there are certain personality types among skydivers who just like to push it. These are, btw, those who might not care for the 'extra dose of safety' you mentioned earlier.
So if you want wingloading bsr's, the important thing would be to enforce them- PR and making it cool to follow the safe(r) canopy progression comes second. Although it seems to me that what might actually be getting cool already is education- into which, imo, at least as much effort should be put as into regulation.

And secondly, regarding arguments on public forums (this is also inded for those who question posts such as the one that started this thread)- sometimes even faulty arguments beget good replies, sometimes informative discussions take place as their result; if this makes a lowtimer approach his new overloaded elliptical with caution and respect, determined to learn all that's possible so that he won't repeat the mistakes of others (like I did), it's good. If it makes someone change their mind and their canopy to something bigger and more appropriate (like I didn't), it's even better.

(It may not be as apparent, but I haven't jumped this weekend either.;))

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Furthermore, Matt's situation isn;t relative to the fact that he is resistant to the idea that everyoen should follow the same guidelines. I come back to my core argument. EVERYONE pulls at 2k or above. It is possible to pull lower, and be fine, but it's not doen (intentionally, or by smart people). If EVERYONE would cool their jets, and follow the guidelines, opencanopy incidents would be reduced, and I'm sure that we would be producing a higher quality of canopy pilot.



I don't disagree with the overall premise.

But I don't think the risks of pulling at 1k (or A's pulling at 2k) is comparable to sub 100 types buying a canopy at 1.05 or 1.1 instead of 1.0.

It's the starting point of the chart that I don't agree with. One, I'd add, is matched by the Survival book guys as well as the actual sales out there.

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The minimum opening altitude BSR; I bet you know people who take it low more often than others



True, but I do know that most DZO's and S&TA's frown upon this.

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I don't see how wl regulations could ever be made the cool thing to follow for everyone in this sport



It starts by having a line drawn in the sand, and it takes hold when the more experienced jumpers frown upon thoise crossing the line. If all of the hot shit canopy pilots gave a guy over the line the cold shoulder, I think it would go a long way.

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The swedish parachute association has a chart for progression. Its based on number of jumps after getting A license.

The following example is for a jumper with the weight of 50 kilo/110 lb.

Number of jumps - recommended size (not less than)
1- 170 (150)
20- 170 (150)
40- 170 (150)
60- 170 (150)
80- 170 (150)
100- 150 (135)
120- 150 (135)
140- 150 (135)
160- 150 (135)
180- 150 (135)
200- 135 (120)
220- 135 (120)
240- 135 (120)


Off all things to believe in - why not yourself

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Would we even be having this discussion if this chart had been implemented as a BSR\BPA Reg 5-10 years ago??

I am guessing here, but I assume that when someone decided that it would be good to set a minimum pack opening altitude there was a lot of resistance, after all low pull comps were all the rage.

When I started jumping(in SA) I was told you must have a flying canopy by 2200Ft, I did not question it they told me and I accepted it,

If I was to have been told that when I got off student status I could expect to only jump a canopy at a wing loading of 1 or less , I would have accepted that just the same

In the UK you have to have 200 jumps to jump camera, you know its the rule and you just get out there and jump until you have the numbers.

So I guess the point I am making is that resistence to restriction is normal, but should it be implemented a new comer to the sport would be far more accepting of the new rule than those who are already in the sport.

Why well I suspect there are very few people who are within the Max for the chart who would argue against it, but it is those who are over it who are scared to be forced to comply with some new rule which would result in upsizing.

Do I agree with the chart its probably a good idea because some of us are to stupid to use our own common sense when it comes to assess what will suit us.

I was jumping at 1.23 at about 130 jumps and very uncurrent, why because the canopy was available and there was no regulation stopping me buying it.
Did I get hurt not yet, but I had some scetchy landings till I got the hang of it. had there been a reg I would not have bought it and been under a 170 with far less risk. I might have been a bit annoyed but it would have been in my own best interest.

So basically bring in the table, make some exceptions for those already jumping certain canopies, if you are over the limit or thinking about getting in over the limit go out jump your ass off and then get it.

You always have tomorrow to get more jumps

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

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Hi Justdumi

I have pretty much stuck to the chart in fact I still flying a canopy loaded at 1.0:1

I totally agree with that chart. As a matter of interest the South African Parachute association has implemented a rule stating that 1.0:1 is the highest anybody can go prior to a 100 jumps.


Cheers
_______________________________________
You are unique, just like everybody else ...

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There's some interesting discussion in this thread but a big problem seems to be that all the experienced guys don't agree.

how many times do we hear "my 1000 jump friend thinks I'll be fine", when experienced guys on here are shaking their heads and making 'bounce' comments?

Is it any surprise that some low number jumpers are confused and annoyed? They're getting conflicting advice...

Unfortunately people will always ask for opinions, and just because two people have the same jump numbers, doesn't mean they'll give the same advice. The trouble is, both of them will believe they're giving the best they can.

One persons 'acceptable risk' isn't necessarily another.

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Is it any surprise that some low number jumpers are confused and annoyed? They're getting conflicting advice...



Which is why this issue needs to be based not on advice, but on hard numbers. Again, a newbie asks, "Whats a good pull altitude for me?", the answer is anything over what BSR's permit for your experience. It's not up to the opinion of whomever you should ask.

Lets face it, many 'experienced' skydivers are idiots. Not that they're not nice people, but some are better at giving good, relevant advice than others.

Defining 'experienced' is another matter. When I first started jumping, anyone with 500 jumps was, in my eyes, the top of the ladder. Sure, I knew that others had 1000's of jumps, but I was sure that once you hit 500, you pretty much knew it all.

It's not uncommon today to see a guy with 1000 jumps who's only been in the sport for 3 years. Here's a guy who's jumped non-stop at a year round DZ, maybe been to a couple boogies, but for the most part has a fairly limited view of skydiving in general. It's not his fault, it's just his situation.

Compare him to guy who has 1000 jumps over the course of, say, 6 years. Here's a guy who's been more places, met more people, and just has a broader and more long term view of skydiving. You're going to get two very different answers from those two guys, who, on the surface, both have 1000 jumps, and both seem like good skydivers.

The fact is that we do have a problem, which we can take steps tp prevent. I know that developing the educational program is a daunting task. Between establishing a cirriculum, and when to introduce it, and how to certify who can teach it (because lets face it, some AFF I's can't fly a parachute for shit), there's alot to cover. But adopting such a WL chart is a snap. Fax a copy to every DZ in the book today, and say, "Starting now, all your students need to be within these guidelines as they get off student status". Done. Over.

Every student who graduates will know that this is the way it is, and this is what they have to work with. Why does that seem so hard. The only people who are resistant are those who have known another option. Do you really think that a jumper will get off student status, look at the chart, and say, "Thats bogus, I quit"?

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While I strongly agree with the need for a ‘not to exceed’ restriction, I would be cautious about its implementation. Comments by some already indicate a possible interpretation of this rule as a guideline.

This rule is intended as a maximum allowable w/l – a regulation. It is not intended as a ‘progression’ chart. Just because someone has 400 jumps does not mean that they are ready for a 1.4 w/l on certain canopies.

As mentioned in previous posts, we can wait until 2K to get a PC out, but most of us do that considerably higher.

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Hi Justdumi

I have pretty much stuck to the chart in fact I still flying a canopy loaded at 1.0:1

I totally agree with that chart. As a matter of interest the South African Parachute association has implemented a rule stating that 1.0:1 is the highest anybody can go prior to a 100 jumps.

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I hear you but we pretty much on the same number of jumps just that apparently you weigh less than me because our canopy sizes are also the same except that for me w/l is 1.49 and for you its 1.

Theres just something off-putting about me trying to use a 250sf canopy. Would you jump one? Im sure me if i jump a 250sf to get that 1.1 w/l i will feel more restricted than you on a 150sf even though we would be at identical wing loadings.

Why is that? Thats where its easier for you. What did you do your first jump on and then where did you go from there?

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