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Rear Riser Stalls

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I was talking to a younger jumper about canopy dynamics and how using rears you can get a high speed stall suddenly. I searched but could not find a vid posted here to that effect. I could have sworn that one or two have been posted but I am having no luck..

Thanks in advance
Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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I did a lot of drills like that learning what the edge of my canopy's control.

Dumping my canopy out the door at altitude and flying my canopy.

Its the same as telling a student to go stall their canopy to learn what the edge of control is to know how to keep from hitting it when low.;)
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Here is a link to an old post on the subject.

There is a video link in there that is dead and I couldn't find it on skydivingmovies.com. However, I have a copy of the video on my hard drive. I cut out the part with the rear riser stall for you and attached it. The quality is fairly poor because it had to be small, but you still get the idea;).

The original video was called BajaTrailer.wmv
Flying Hellfish #470

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That was actually a fairly tame and semi-controlled rear riser stall, but it's a decent example. There is fantastic video of Joe Bennet rear stalling into the pond in the ASC fall swoop meet tape. Actually, you see some in the PST end of year video as well, during the zone accuracy rounds.

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Part of Scott Miller's canopy course in DeLand includes performing rear riser stalls and toggle stalls at altitude. Anytime I'm talking with student jumpers getting tired of jumping on their own, I encourage them to open high and perform these stalls.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with having a newbie execute a front riser turn prior to hitting the rears, just to induce a stall... Personally, I don't think students have any business even touching their front risers, even at altitude.

For those of you reading this with eliptical canopies, be very, very careful. You're canopy will likely spin up on you after this little maneuver.:o

Jeff
Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

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Rear riser stalls are not very likely to cause a canopy to spin up since the canopy doesn't fold up like a brake induced stall.

Why not have newbies use front risers even up high? It's part of the A license requirements now and personally think it's a very good idea.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I wasn't sure if rears could spin up a main like the toggles, but wanted to at least throw the warning out so we don't see a sudden increase of cut away canopies due to my posting... :P My somewhat conservative (but loaded) canopy spun up after a deep toggle stall.

Keep in mind I'm not an AFF-I, so these are just my personal opinions. I'm open minded, so please feel free to correct my way of thinking. Well, try anyway! ;)

Yes, front riser turns are listed as a maneuver to accomplish for the A license. However, I just can't think of a situation under canopy where a student would need to be using anything but toggles and possibly rears in an emergency. I think explaining to the student that a front riser will cause the canopy to go into a diving turn is sufficient instruction.

Their's no denying the appeal of swooping. By having a student perform the first basic step of the maneuver, it's nothing but temptation. There will certainly be those that will execute it up high and think 'that wasn't so tough'. The next thing you know, they've put themselves in the corner...:(

I can already tell this is going to be a controversial subject. Yes, the USPA says it should be done, and the AFF curriculum was developed by people far wiser and knowledgeable than I, but I can't help think this may fall in a category of RSL usage, and both hands on the cutaway vs. one hand on each handle.

Just my two cents!
Jeff

ps- Please be constructive in your responses, your thoughts and experience may be passed on to my students in coaching sessions.
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No need to be an AFFI to have opinions. We learn from every one should we choose to.

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I just can't think of a situation under canopy where a student would need to be using anything but toggles and possibly rears in an emergency. I think explaining to the student that a front riser will cause the canopy to go into a diving turn is sufficient instruction.



Fun is a good situation. Exploring flight characteristics is another. Dropping altitude quickly, keeping your ground while flying into a headwind.

There are lots of good reasons to use front risers. Explaining that a canopy will go into a dive isn't really all that sufficient Pulling down on front risers will certainly decrease the angle of attack but it's not really a dive. Besides, unless you try the front risers, it won't make any sense. Exploring canopy flight is confidence building. Stalling a canopy is too.

Screwing around under canopy shouldn't be taboo. And here's the disclaimer... don't be wreckless.

Parachutes are designed well so when they are open, they tend to stay that way. Most of the time, a person has to try really hard to screw it up. Finding the stall, and going beyond is not only fun/scary, it's physically educational. Cranking down on the front risers, either one or both, is also physically educational.

If cranking down on the front risers folds up the canopy, then ground the canopy. There are few parachutes nowadays that will fold up while performing hard front riser maneuvers. Ever since I began skydiving, I've tried very hard to screw up a canopy using front risers. With the canopy choices I've made it's never been an issue.

Conquest is a bad canopy to front riser. There used to be a canopy called the Pintail. It was even worse. I saw one in action once. Because of that, my very next flight on the canopy I owned at the time, consisted of trying really hard to screw it up with front risers. That went for every canopy I've flown ever since.

New and seasoned skydivers alike ought to explore the canopies flight charactersistics to some extent. Other wise, the canopy is simply transportation to the ground.

Hope that helps.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Yes, front riser turns are listed as a maneuver to accomplish for the A license. However, I just can't think of a situation under canopy where a student would need to be using anything but toggles and possibly rears in an emergency.



To get down. For instance, to avoid backing up even farther away from the DZ (happend to me once, jumped a 190, the wind picked up rather suddenly, half the load landed out, farther behind me were way more farms and things than slighty behind me so getting down quickly was way better).
Or to get a bit more speed against the wind (frequently happens to me, I load my canopy fairly low, still).

These are not so much emergencies, but rather ways of avoiding emercencies...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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A little front riser pressure can help to pressurize a canopy in turbulance. As an AFF I I feel it is imperative for a student to not only know what a front riser can do but to actually experience, the speed and altitude loss when one is using the fronts. Rear riser stalls are usually very smooth on the onset, and do not usually spin up. I also feel everyone should perform rear riser stalls up high too. The easiest way is to get some speed up and then jam on the rears. This will demonstrate a high speed stall. (IE I'm low and I have a broken steering line or have lost a toggle.) If you are not prepared for this situation then what are you going to do when it happens to you? I'm not advocating that people land on their rears untill they are ready, but know what your canopy will do in every situation is a very helpfull thing. "Knowing is half the battle!"

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No need to be an AFFI to have opinions. We learn from every one should we choose to.



I've learned a lot from a guy in this sport when he had under 200 jumps. Hell, I've learned interesting things about this sport from someone with 3 jumps last year.

You can learn from everyone in this sport regardless of experience, age or skill. Overlook that and you've become a skygod and will become stagnent.

(To agree with you Tim).:)
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Their's no denying the appeal of swooping. By having a student perform the first basic step of the maneuver, it's nothing but temptation. There will certainly be those that will execute it up high and think 'that wasn't so tough'. The next thing you know, they've put themselves in the corner...:(



There's no denying the appeal of sex. By teaching our children sex education it's nothing but temptation. There will certainly be those that will think "that isn't so hard". Next thing you know, little Suzie is pregnant and little Johnny has syphilis.

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Sadly, this is a real argument used by proponents of abstinence to take sex ed out of schools. [:/] Some people genuinely believe that you can stick your head in the sand and the danger will go away...

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In Reply To


There's no denying the appeal of sex. By teaching our children sex education it's nothing but temptation. There will certainly be those that will think "that isn't so hard". Next thing you know, little Suzie is pregnant and little Johnny has syphilis.

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Some good points. I want to clarify that I strongly encourage experimentation with rear risers (hence my first post on the subject). I agree 100% that rear risers are an important survival skill, for the exact reasons you mentioned; no argument there, it's only the front risers that I take issue with.

Reading some of the responses, I'd also like to clarify that I'm talking about jumpers having 8-25 jumps using their front risers.

Evidently my opinion isn't shared by many, :( but I'll argue a couple of the points I've seen so far.

Fun- I won't argue the fact that front risers are fun. I just question whether jumpers on student status should be using them. As they progress in their skills, then they should experiment with front risers, without question.

Canopy control - students are taught s-turns to lose altitude, not front risers. Again, we're talking students with 8-25 jumps. Most students are still trying to learn to use toggles proficiently with this many jumps.

Sex Ed - I think that analogy proves my point. Tell them about it, don't encourage them to perform the action. Think about it, 'just put it in a little, but then stop'. Yeah right... (sorry Moderators, I'm trying to prove a point, not be overly graphic). I don't have kids, but I'll argue that education doesn't necessarily involve performing the action, just to learn from it.

It would be interesting to hear a student's perspective on this... Everybody commenting thus far has been off student status for a while, and discussion of canopy pressurization may make more sense to us than it does to someone new in the sport.

Let me reiterate, I'm talking specifically about skydivers with under 25 jumps. Once some experience is gained, I think EVERYONE should play with front risers. Just like I think everyone should have sex at least once! ;)

Jeff
Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

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I consider myself a student at 27 jumps (I know people with over 200 jumps who consider themselves a student). To get my A license I was required to do Riser turns at height (above 1000'). I have only done about 3-4 jumps where I have played with risers but I wish I did it a lot sooner.

I think canopy skills are the most important thing for me to learn early. When under canopy only my experience (or lack there of) in flying the canopy is keeping me from eating dirt and colliding with objects. At least with freefall I do not jump with others until I am deemed safe (ie passed my B-Rels), and hence avoid dangers (to myself and others) of collisions in freefall.

I was probably told this before in my AFF but when doing the riser exercises it re-enforced things such as using the rear to get back from long spots and avoiding some objects.

I want to get comfortable using my risers so that if I have a near miss in the sky I can use my risers with confidence. It is my understanding that toggles may take too long in this case.

I shall be asking my instructor about front risers in high winds to get more information about this as I jump a 270' and you do not always get a lot of forward speed. When you are a student you are more likely to use a canopy, which is affected by turbulence and high winds.

Also the APF recommends that when you get a new canopy you should try riser turns at height, if you do not do this on student canopies then how can you compare. Would it not be more sensible to have people practice these things on relatively safe student canopies before they get their hands on a more HP canopy?

I do not advocate that all students at (say) jump 10 should play with risers like crazy. I think it is more important for them to focus on target assisting themselves. But I found great value from the riser exercises and especially the discussions and thoughts that these exercises provoked.

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I consider myself a student at 27 jumps (I know people with over 200 jumps who consider themselves a student). To get my A license I was required to do Riser turns at height (above 1000'). I have only done about 3-4 jumps where I have played with risers but I wish I did it a lot sooner.

I think canopy skills are the most important thing for me to learn early. When under canopy only my experience (or lack there of) in flying the canopy is keeping me from eating dirt and colliding with objects. At least with freefall I do not jump with others until I am deemed safe (ie passed my B-Rels), and hence avoid dangers (to myself and others) of collisions in freefall.

I was probably told this before in my AFF but when doing the riser exercises it re-enforced things such as using the rear to get back from long spots and avoiding some objects.

I want to get comfortable using my risers so that if I have a near miss in the sky I can use my risers with confidence. It is my understanding that toggles may take too long in this case.

I shall be asking my instructor about front risers in high winds to get more information about this as I jump a 270' and you do not always get a lot of forward speed. When you are a student you are more likely to use a canopy, which is affected by turbulence and high winds.

Also the APF recommends that when you get a new canopy you should try riser turns at height, if you do not do this on student canopies then how can you compare. Would it not be more sensible to have people practice these things on relatively safe student canopies before they get their hands on a more HP canopy?

I do not advocate that all students at (say) jump 10 should play with risers like crazy. I think it is more important for them to focus on target assisting themselves. But I found great value from the riser exercises and especially the discussions and thoughts that these exercises provoked.



I attempted some front riser turns on the Navigator 260 (loaded a little less than 1:1) I was flying on Saturday, and I swear when I tried to pull the riser down the damn thing laughed at me. :P I managed a 15 degree turn at best, and a sore right arm for a little while. I think it's a sign I need to get to the gym for the next two weeks while the DZ is closed ;)

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Go to the gym as you suggested... also, pull it down hard and quickly. Don't be gentle about it on that large of a canopy. If that doesn't work, try both hands on one riser.

Have fun!
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I want to get comfortable using my risers so that if I have a near miss in the sky I can use my risers with confidence. It is my understanding that toggles may take too long in this case.



Hmmm. Your toggles should always be in your hand, so that would actually be the quickest. Your instructor can elaborate further on this one.

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I think canopy skills are the most important thing for me to learn early. When under canopy only my experience (or lack there of) in flying the canopy is keeping me from eating dirt and colliding with objects.



You're absolutely right! Welcome to the sport, and may you have many soft landings! :)
Jeff
Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

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Hmmm. Your toggles should always be in your hand, so that would actually be the quickest. Your instructor can elaborate further on this one.



Except on opening, when it's quicker to pull on a rear riser than to unstow the toggle...you don't get any turn until you pull the toggle more than half brakes...which is, I believe, the situation he's talking about...
---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

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