Help choosing my second canopy

[vibeke 0]

Hi!

Im having a lot of trouble choosing my next canopy!
Im just about to buy a Spectre 120, but need some feedback from you!

I load a 120 with 1.3. So I have got size figured out.
109 is good but I like to be on the safe side.

Design:
Done 40ish jumps on a Safire 109 and the landings on the were quite nice. That is - they felt good, but I saw a lot of video with my landings during that period, and visible on camera it dropped me in the middle of surfs more than once, for no good reason. The Safire also had a tendency not to respond as well as I would like it to, so quick small inputs, so that design is not interesting.

I like the flare and the consistancy / predictability on PDs canopys, so Im leaning towards their designs.

The Spectre was offered to me and its very tempting. I think I just might buy. But then again - will I be bored too soon?
I want a canopy I can grow with and jump at least 200 jumps on.
Friends I have consulted today seems to think that I should wait for a cheap Sabre2 or go eliptical.

I only have 300 jumps - but my piloting skill are okay. I have high awareness and feel confident in the manuvers that I do. I have no problem (besides front riser pressure on some canopys) frontrisering, even though I prefeer soft carving turns instead. Nice landing downwinds and generally *knock on wood* allways controlled landings.

I asked Brian Germain, on one of his weekend seminars, which canopy he would recomend for me. Having seen me land a few times , he said a Katana 120 or a Samurai 120 would be good choises. He was the one who talked me out of the Safire 109, by showing weird details of my landing on video. But I dont want to wait 100 jumps before getting a new canopy.

I currently own a Sabre 135 but need to downsize for obvious reasons. And I want a different design as well! The Sabre is too slow in its responses and I cant build sufficient speed for great landing without very low toggle turns.

I guess what Im asking is your feedback. You cant see me land, so you will have to go by what I have told you. (Have tried to give many details).

I dont feel that Im ready to spite our national guidelines and buy an elitical before 400 jumps. I dont want the typical Stiletto, as I dont like how that design level off too fast. I have seen many hook it too low, to let good landings and I disapprove of a design encouraging that.

Would the Spectre provide me with enough challanges and does it have other good characteristics than soft openings?
I want a ressponsive canopy, able to swoop!

Or do you have any other good suggestions? (Fast as Im in negotations on the Spectre).

Sorry this post became so long. Hoping for your advice.

Blue Ones
Vibeke

[AggieDave 6]

Recommendation1: Stay with a 120!

Recommendation2: Demo everything you can get your hands on, except for the high performance stuff.

Recommendation3: Decide after putting a good number of jumps on all your demos.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vibeke 0]

Live in Denmark, not easy to demo lots of stuff.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Just so you know, the Katana is definitely not a beginners canopy. It is a very high performance nine-cell. At 300 jumps you ought to probably steer well clear of wings like that.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Live in Denmark, not easy to demo lots of stuff

Ok, then I'm going to give you a blanket statement about the Sabre2. Its a great wing, at your wingloading on a 120 there is a LOT of performance to be had from it, but it can still fly conservatively. Once you start really learning canopy control, you'll be surprised how much you will be able to get out of a Sabre2. If you have the skill, you can swoop the piss out of a Sabre2.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vibeke 0]

Skymonkey - theres is more to piloting skills than number of jumps! But I will take your advice, I want a couple of hundred more jumps before going there.

Aggie - That was my first thought! A Sabre2. But I just havent gotten a decent offer on a 120sqf yet, and Im getting eager to buy a new.
Figure the Spectre is in the same class as Sabre2. And have now more or less made arrangements to buy.

Thank you for your input!!
Edit: Allways forget to remove the "Append Signature". Suppose I should really just delite the signature itself.

[hookitt 0]

OK, I'm back from lunch....

That message was to give you something to think about. There was nothing inflamatory and certainly was not for my benefit. I read your post and saw nothing wrong with mine. Apparently there was so it's gone.

I agree that 1.3 is just fine and you don't sound that you are pushing it.I shouldn't have erased the toggle comment but was called to lunch so it's gone.

Advice taken though.

Spectre... 7 cell.
Sabre2 ... 9 Cell

The 2 are not in the same class. You'll be much happier with a Sabre2 than a Spectre.

Good luck

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[vibeke 0]

Hookit - I think you might have missed the point in my post.
I was actually asking for advice - not your frustrations.
I know im not an expert at 300 jumps. On the contariy I was seeking guidance from more experienced skydivers than my self, other than the people around me.

Edited - you got my full reply!

Im sure you reply was made for the right reasons, but be carefull not to generalize!

[Dazzle 0]

Give parachutecase.nl a call. They got me a demo katana in the summer with no hassle at all.

edited to add: as in they can get you demo canopies rather than suggesting that you demo the katana

[hookitt 0]

You do the same.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

The Sabre II is MUCH more fun than the Spectre. If you are looking for something that is not hp but you can get a lot out of, i'd get the Sabre II. I really dislike the Spectre due to the steep glide, crappy (compared to 9 cell ) flare, and slow turns. But, to each his/her own, just thought i'd throw that out there. It sounds like you made the decision to buy the Spectre before you posted, but just incase you didn't...

--A

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Yes the 9-cell Sabre2 will have a shallower glide slope than the 7-cell Spectre and yes you are entitled to your opinion that you prefer jumping the Sabre2 over the Spectre. But do not be mistaken. The Spectre is an outstanding canopy. It is not my primary canopy, but I thoroughly enjoy flying my Spectre 150 (loaded at about 1.4:1 in my wingsuit rig). I can shoot accuracy approaches on one jump and swoop the crap out of it on the next jump. Obviously I will swoop farther and faster under my CF2, but the Spectre can still be swooped.

It's been said before and I guess it needs to be said again, "It's the pilot, not the canopy".

Back to your regular scheduled programming ... oh and I don't want to be thought of as someone who's slamming Sabre canopies as well. I previously owned two Sabre2 canopies and thoroughly enjoyed jumping them. I just wanted to make sure people knew that Spectres are good canopies, canopies which are capable of being swooped and swooped for considerable distances.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Yoshi 0]

just another note...since it is really important to me... you will ( if you like really soft snivelly openings) like the spectre more... from personal experience the spectre will open smoother and softer than a sabre2

-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Quote

Yes the 9-cell Sabre2 will have a shallower glide slope than the 7-cell Spectre and yes you are entitled to your opinion that you prefer jumping the Sabre2 over the Spectre.

gee, thanks;)

Seriously, I understand that everyone will have a different opinion. I just thought i'd add mine. I would never buy a spectre because I don't like it's flight characteristics. There are plenty of people who do and plenty who don't and, obviously, I speak only for myself. That's great that you like them, though. Obviously some people do or they wouldn't sell And, personally, I don't like terribly snively openings, either. I much prefer my Samurai which opens in ~500 feet than my old Stiletto which took 1000 feet. So, it's all in what you're looking for.

-A

[hookitt 0]

Quote

It's been said before and I guess it needs to be said again, "It's the pilot, not the canopy".

And it's a boring canopy if you are that pilot. Great parchute.. but it's no swoop machine.

I would suspect the originator of the thread would rather have a Sabre2 or something like it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I would suspect the originator of the thread would rather have a Sabre2 or something like it.

I can't think of a reason why someone wouldn't like a Sabre2 canopy especially if they are just learning to swoop.

Quote

And it's a boring canopy if you are that pilot. Great parchute.. but it's no swoop machine.

I disagree. Okay it may not be a swoop machine like a cross-braced canopy, a Crossfire, a Katana, etc, etc, etc. But it can be swooped and swooped for a reasonable distance.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[vibeke 0]

"I would suspect the originator of the thread would rather have a Sabre2 or something like it."

Is there any canopy in the same class, other than the Sabre2 and the Spectre?
Something semi-eliptical / slightly tapered?

And thank you all for your feedback on the Spectre and Sabre2. Very usefull information, even if I buy a Spectre now, I can allways look out for a Sabre2 if its a better canopy.
I belive experience can be gained from flying sevel designs anyway, so...

_________________________________________________________
Your success and happiness, is in direct proportions to your commitment to excellence, regardless of your chosen field of endeavour.

[DancingFlame 0]

Quote

Is there any canopy in the same class, other than the Sabre2 and the Spectre?
Something semi-eliptical / slightly tapered?

Yes, there are. Safire Why don't give a try to 119? 109 seems a little bit small...
Aerodyne Pilot. I demoed one (W/L was ~1.35) and it was definitely better than Spectre.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

The Lotus Max is also the same class as the Sabre II, they can be found used sometimes, too:) The Safire II is also supposed to be a good canopy. I have not tried either of these, though.

-A

[JohanW 0]

You have some nice contradictions in your requirements. You want high performance but not high performance. No less-than-high performance canopy is going to have a long recovery arc.

In my opinion, you do not want a Stiletto, Safire2 or Pilot because of the (short) recovery arc. You do not want a Sabre1 because of the (un)responsiveness. You also do not want any 7-cell, like the Spectre.

Further suggestions include Katana, Samurai, Lotus and Sabre2.

I'd add the Aerodyne Vision because I have not flown it, and not the PdF Springo because I have. A Crossfire2 may or may not be to your liking, it swoops but it might be higher performance than you like. You might also try a Paratec Faqtor, about which I know absolutely nothing.

I say demo, demo, demo.

I would also suggest not clinging to the longest recovery arc you can find to the exclusion of all other characteristics, because with a carving frontriserturn you can allow for enough margin even with a shorter recovery arc. You can of course hook it (too) low, but there are other options. It's always the pilot, remember?

Oh, and do not buy anything now. Make those 100 jumps that would allow you to have more choice in canopies - on your current canopy, and learn to *really* fly it - do CReW, swoop it harder (yes, you can), fly it on all risers, work on your accuracy - and make as many of those jumps as possible on demo canopies, which will keep you from being bored. Lend, hire and steal as many different ones as you can, even designs that do not appeal to you and sizes that you think are too big, and find the good points of them. Every canopy has its niche - find it. It may not be your niche, but you'll learn tons.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[vibeke 0]

Hi all - again thank you for the additional advises given.
I appreciate all the input I get.

I also liked many of the suggestions given by you JohanW, but there is one thing I find a pretty weird suggestion.

Getting to know my canopy; why would that involve doing CReW?!
I like flying my canopy relatively close to other (skilled canopy pilots) but doing CReW is in my opinion not a common aspect of "getting to know your canopy". Its a discipline, and a rather extreme one.
I would definitely not want anyone kicking their feet in my lines and fabric. Its not build for CReW and CReW has little to do with my canopy control skills, that focuses mainly on "playing around" up high and practicing my high speed approach landings or accuracy landings.

But you said it like it was a very common thing - and a natural part of learning how to be a better canopy pilot.

I was under the impression its a high risc, am I wrong? I certainly dont want a wrap!
Do you (and other here on dz.com) recommend this often, to ppl with 300 jumps?

I don't mean to sound skeptic, Im just really surprised.
Edited: Bad spelling

[sikorsky 0]

check out www.dqnt.com/acc.htm for more info on learning crw - it can have a very positive effect on your skills... canopy & otherwise.

[C00KIE 0]

Hi Vibeke,

I've been following your thread through association with a friend who is an avid swooping enthusiast. My favourate discipline is CRW.

Now I'm no expert so I have posted a notice on the CRW Forum to get more experienced people involved and really get something going here.

CRW can be 'extreme' but so is swooping.

How can CRW improve your skills in canopy control and be relevant to you? I barely know where to begin! What you will learn in one CRW jump will be worth 50-plus HP landings.

The one thing that CRW and Swooping have in common is that the pilot is working with a relative object. In CRW that relative object is another canopy that is movable and similarly under the control of an experienced pilot under controlled, standardised conditions. In swooping, your relative object to which you are working is the ground. This is a non-movable and FINAL object. The chances are if you get it wrong with the ground you won't be around to jump again. In CRW if you get it wrong the risk is actually less than getting it wrong swooping.

If I have your interest here, read on. You may know most of what is about to follow but I'm going to write it just in case:

Firstly it is not recommended to practice CF on anything other than a CRW-friendly canopy. Your canopy has micro-lines or similar and these can be very harmful when/if you make contact. At high speeds they burn and cut through stuff like a knife through butter. Also a nine-cell canopy is less equipped to deal with turbulance (a common factor in CRW work) and canopy deflation which can happen on contact. CRW canopies have seven-cells.

CRW is about controlled, precise, planned and gentle specific docking.

Wraps are an occurance but often easily avoided and something you are briefed to deal with.

CRW is always practiced at high altitudes (ie: above 2500ft) to counter these risks.

Like all disciplines in skydiving CRW should be first learnt under instruction with a coach.

It is not easy. Once you get close to your objective; the other canopy, you canopy 'inputs' become more noticeable. You really start to appreciate what your risers can do for you in relation to your 'relative object'. Also you learn the immediate difference between the effect of using toggles as opposed to risers which is very relevent to swooping. Every input you make you will see the result of ie: do I go forward more? Do I drop more? How can I side-slide?

Did you know that you can make your canopy side-slide? This is how you learn more. Such new skills can benefit for example, on landing with lots of traffic and using the side-slide to avoid a collision or seek 'clean' air without losing height or cell-pressure.

How do you know what a flat-turn really is without a relative object to judge your height loss? This can also be discovered on your standard CRW introduction.

A CRW canopy is slower. But it is also more robust. This works for CRW maneuvers above HP canopies. But the inputs are the same, the skills you apply are the same as you would apply with a HP canopy.

In conclusion just a few CRW jumps are going to make you a more knowledgeable canopy pilot with more skills and tricks to service you for a whole career in canopy swooping.

You will not regret it. In fact you may just want to give up swooping and make that second canopy of yours be a CRW canopy because the experience is something out of this world. It really is the most beautiful thing I've ever done.

Hope this helps and look forward to hearing more!

CRW Canopies include:
PD Manufactured 'Lightning'
French 'Ruby' and 'Diamond'
'Fury'
And also occasionally 'Saphires' have been used.

There are several organised CRW events geared towards coaching newcomers in Europe and NEAR YOU. Check out www.canopy-formation.org.

Be safe,

Cookiexx

Life is a four letter word!

[AggieDave 6]

There are also some Prodigy's floating around still (re: crew canopies).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vibeke 0]

I hear your arguments. I will read more on the CReW.
Im also looking forward to more views of this issue.

I must point out to you, that Im not really a "dedicated swooper". My discipline is Formation Skydiving, but I enjoy flying my canopy and get a kick out of doing great landings also. Regardless if my target is the accuracy tuffet or having a really nice fast and long surf.

Primarily Im just looking to learn more about flying my canopy. So you have got my attention!

And I have seen CReW jumpers perform, but still I don't want to engage in activities that are "just looking for trouble" I like having good health!
I will look in to the specifics on CReW fatalities. I had the impression their statistics where bad.
I have heard former CReW jumpers say that they quit CReW because they found it to be too dangerous.

_________________________________________________________
Your success and happiness, is in direct proportions to your commitment to excellence, regardless of your chosen field of endeavour.