Low Toggle Turns

[efex 0]

Hi ppl,
I have currently put about 60 jumps onto my Pilot 150, loaded just under 1.1. For the first time this weekend I experimented with a 180 toggle turn at around 1000ft, in an attempt to gain an appreciation for the alitude lost during such turns. I was surprised by exactly how much altiude I had lost after going back to normal glide, again with my canopy showing me just how much I dont know and how important it remains to make small incremental steps.
I did a search in these forums and couldnt find a similar question (my apologies if I missed one) but I would like to know what you personally consider the minimum atltidue is for such turns. I appreciate this is heavily canopy dependant so if there are any other 150 pilots out there, loading around 1.1, you reply would be greatly appreciated.

Marc

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[TALONSKY 0]

If you want to learn how much altitude your canopy losses in a toggle turn, do it up high (above 1000 AGL) and look at your altimeter before and after the turn and it will tell you how much altitude you have lost. Agressive toggle turns should not be made low to the ground.
Kirk

[bergh 0]

Hi

If you are purely look at altitude loss then do this testing above 1000ft. If your trying to do this for impressive landings then you're heading for alot pain.

I would suggest you buy yourself a copy of the Canopy an its pilot before you hurt yourself.

Please keep in mind that I am still very inexperience and that the best advice is with your instuctors and people who have seen you fly your canopy.

Cheers

_______________________________________
You are unique, just like everybody else ...

[repeter 0]

deploy at altlitude and play around.. those will be your most valuable jump..

[AggieDave 6]

Between 2000ft and 1000ft people are setting up for their pattern, at 1000ft and below, people are flying their pattern. Iniating radical maneuvers outside of the pattern at those altitudes can cause serious serious problems. From now on when you're wanting to rag out your canopy, why don't you take a CReW pass (aka get out at 13k and deploy, last out of the plane). That way you'll have plenty of time to really play with your canopy and learn how it flies.

Some drills to do would be turns, flare turns, flat turns, stalls (toggle) stalls on the rear risers and of course, flare technique.

You would get the most benifit from these drills if you took a good canopy control course such as the one done by Scott Miller. I had the pleasure of taking his first course and advanced course last weekend. I learned quite a bit in both of those courses, so I'm sure you would learn quite a bit as well.

As for attempting the manuevers down low, right now in your progression and experience level, I would argue that the safest low altitude for you to do a manuever like that is 2000ft. Any lower then that and you become a danger to yourself and others.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freebird185 0]

Well now that you’ve been properly bashed by five different people, I will say that because you're are even asking this question and that you said "how important it remains to make small incremental steps." you are on the right path for progressing safely. And you don't sound like the type that's going to whip it into the ground tomorrow.

I applaud you.

HOWEVER, people are setting up for there landings at that altitude, and if you cut me off or collide with me ... I am going to be extremely pissed off!!!!!!

You need to think about other people's safety as well as your own.

The place for radical maneuvers is up high.

If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs?

[efex 0]

Hey Guys,
It might help to add that this was a cessna load, and I was only one out on last pass (i.e the only canopy in the air at the time). Had I not been I would never have done what I did, due to getting in other peoples way. This was probably the first thing drilled into everyone at my last canopy control seminar.

I understand the bashings and will take onboard what has been said about the miniumum safe heights for practicing this sort of thing.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing (especially in this sport) and in retrospect I think what my original question should have been:

How long (either time or altitude) does it take for a canopy take to return to full glide (max flare potential) after a radical toggle turn?

Regards,
Marc

[AggieDave 6]

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How long (either time or altitude) does it take for a canopy take to return to full glide (max flare potential) after a radical toggle turn?

On average about 10 seconds to return to normal flight. However, during the recovery arc the flare will react differently and "max flare potential" depends on a lot of things. Now, the amount of altitude varies greatly with canopy design and wingloading during those 10 seconds. Thus you want to not initiate any sort of agressive manuevers atleast 10 seconds before landing. That will better your odds of having a powerful flare. If you're caught on the wrong side of the recovery arc you'll either not beable to sufficiently get your weight out infront of the canopy to flare and you'll impact with the earth at a high speed. Or, you'll be on the other end of the recovery arc in which your canopy had already flattend out its flight, then nosed down a bit to regain its normal flight speed. At that point you're not going to have much flare at all.

Also, you should know that I wasn't trying to bash, I was trying to explain and help.


To further what I was saying, though, you must be very careful initiating agressive manuevers at low altitudes, including "as high" as 1000'. The reason being is during agressive manuevers it is easy to induce linetwists. I would imagine that your decision altitude is higher then 1000' and it is higher then 800', which is a guess at what you would be at if you did something agressive that ended up in you chopping your main.

This is in addition to possibly creating severe landing problems for yourself and others in the pattern.


Can I highly suggest that you take a canopy course such as Scott Miller's course? You'll learn many many things in the class room and under canopy that will help you understand these things more fully.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hkf 0]

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take a CReW pass (aka get out at 13k and deploy, last out of the plane).

I Pitty The Fool, who does this in England with our weather at the moment, he'll freeze his bollocks off!!

Borrow or buy a Neptune or Sunto (digital altis) and play up high, look at it before and after each manouvre. Just make sure you don't get to fixated on it and miss other traffic.

[johnny1488 1]

I am glad you are asking these questions. Bashed or not, you are looking for knowledge, and that is comendable.

In addition to using an altimeter up high to guage altitude loss in agressive turns, try to do a high hopandpop with and expierenced jumper, preferably an instructor, to give you a visual reference of how your canopy is reacting to your inputs.

Know your canopy looses 250 feet in a hard toggle 180 and 75feet in a braked turn is one thing, but seeing it with another canopy as a refernece is another. The more ways you can help your mind understand how a canopy flies the better.

And dont forget, deploying up high gives you a lot more bang for your buck.

Good luck and be safe.

And I have to emphatically agree with Dave, Scott Miller is an excellent teacher. I have taken his course twice and sat in on a few more. Do your best to take his and any other canopy course you can. No matter what skydiving disciplines you persue, they will all end in a canopy flight and landing. Make the most of them.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[efex 0]

Heya,

hfk is right about those 13k CreW passes, we dont really have them in the UK due to the slightly cold air.

I appreciate everyones input and will certainly look into doing another canopy control lecture.

Also, there seems to be some debate about which is the best digital alti to use. Is there one which stands out from the rest? Also would you continue to wear the analog one when using a digital?

Blue skies,
Marc

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[Tonto 1]

Neptune.

I usually wear 2 alti's, one on the left wrist, one on the right legstrap. Wrist is for freefall, legstrap for canopy. It also helps when someone's forgotten theirs - I don't mind lending.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Dazzle 0]

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hfk is right about those 13k CreW passes, we dont really have them in the UK due to the slightly cold air

No problem deploying at the top in the UK, just dont do it in october
I was going to a couple of weeks ago but the other plane being in the air at the same time stopped me from being able to, that and the fact it was raining as well!

[pilotdave 0]

Don't think anyone mentioned this yet...

One more thing to watch out for doing hard toggle turns down low... spinning into line twists.

I jump a Sabre2 135 loaded just under 1.1. I was at about 1300 feet, just upwind of the landing area. Decided to do a quick 180 to lose some altitude and put myself onto downwind. Well, pulled the toggle and instead of diving, I found myself on my back looking up at the sky, as my canopy started twisting up over my head. Luckily my canopy flew mostly straight in the twists, but I still didn't have them kicked out until about 700 feet or so.

I probably had almost 200 jumps on the canopy. I had done plenty of hard turns before, toggle stalls, rear riser stalls, etc. Never had it do anything like that. Lesson learned!

Dave