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TheRealDBish

Coaches/riggers recommend smaller first canopy than CSPA manual. Who do I listen to?

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Hey guys, I'm new to the sport (~30 jumps) and I'm looking at buying my own rig for next year. I've been doing a lot of research about what is out there and I feel like I'm getting a good idea of what I'd like to buy, but I'm not entirely sure of what main canopy size I should get.

The PIM (Canadian SIM) says that for someone of my size (6'5" 215lb) I should be jumping no less than a 230sqft until ~180 jumps. I intended to follow this until everyone at my dz said that I should get a 210 (riggers/coaches) or even a 190 (other people).

Some of the reasons suggested to get a 210:

- I'm already loading the 290sqft student rig at about 0.95

- I'll want to downsize to 210 right away. 230 canopies and containers are harder to find. I'll want to be able to downsize more on the same container

- Guys my size had 210 as first rig and used it for 250 or so jumps

- I'm taking a canopy course in a couple weeks (on a student rig) and I'll have the skills to handle a 210

No way am I going to buy a 190 but I'm not sure if I listen to the manual recommendation more or the coaches that know me. I trust these guys with my life so I assume they know what is good for me personally, but I still feel like the manual wouldn't say so firmly not to downsize past recommendations unless it was really important.

Any advice from you guys would be appreciated!

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What I'm not hearing here is why YOU want to downsize. Who cares what *they* say.

How are your landings? Can you make your canopy do everything you want? (The canopy couse should help with specifics.) Why do you want everything to go faster under canopy?

Without that input I say wingloading shmingload, who cares. Canopy type makes a big diffrence in speed as well - take the canopy course first, and discuss with that instructor. Learn from the most experienced instructor possible (I highly recommend Flight-1 courses if you can).

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There are a lot of reasons for people downsizing early. However every person is different and nobody thinks they are below average when it comes to flying a canopy.

I would do the canopy course. Talk to you instructors who have watched a few of your landings and be open to the idea of jumping a larger canopy if that is what they are suggesting.

All of those reasons are really weak for determining reasons to downsize. Once you are able to consistently land on your feet with accuracy in all conditions and would like a little bit more performance then you could consider downsizing. This will take a reasonable number of jumps to complete and in doing so you will gain a decent amount of experience.

Doing this as before downsizing will reduce risks of a landing injury which are expensive.

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What model of canopy are you interested in?
What does the manufacturer say?

For example, if you're looking to fly a Safire or a Storm then it shouldn't be a problem, but a Silhouette will be dangerous.

The PIM is just a basic guide, but on some models it could get you into trouble.
What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

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CSPA and your gut tell you to buy a 230 ..... but local sky-gods are telling you to buy something faster.

The other problem is that the local sky-gods' advice is so "passe'"
Now most young jumpers get bored with regular skydiving after 200 jumps and they want to try wing-suiting or camera-flying or BASE. With the all that extra equipment, you will be glad to wear a boring main canopy.
BASE requires even bigger and more boring canopies .... more than 300 square feet for a lad your size. .... Not that exciting for skydiving, but if you buy a 230 you can practice he precision landing skills that are vital to BASE jumpers.

Finally, remember that medium to large canopies cost much less than ambulance rides.

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What's different about a silhouette that would make it dangerous? It's not that high performance is it? The description says "lightly tapered" which I think generally means it's not that aggressive. I've only jumped volts and pilots so I don't really know anything about different how different canopies handle, just that a fully eliptical like a katana for instance would be insanely aggressive and prone to spinning up, even at a conservative wing loading.

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radical_flyer

What's different about a silhouette that would make it dangerous? It's not that high performance is it? The description says "lightly tapered" which I think generally means it's not that aggressive. I've only jumped volts and pilots so I don't really know anything about different how different canopies handle, just that a fully eliptical like a katana for instance would be insanely aggressive and prone to spinning up, even at a conservative wing loading.



Going by the manufacturer's recommendations, Performance Designs, there are five different skill levels: student, novice, intermediate, advanced, and expert.

So if I take a 215lbs jumper add 20 lbs for an exit weight of 235lbs, here's what Performance Designs max recommended weight for each skill level.

Storm 210

Student: 158
Novice: 210
Intermediate: 221
Advanced: 242
Expert: 263

Silhouette 210

Student: 147
Novice: 157.5
Intermediate: 179
Advanced: 210
Expert: 231

So a Storm 210 would be an Advanced canopy at that weight, but a Silhouette 210 would be an Expert canopy. When I originally made the comment I didn't add the 20lbs of gear so a Storm 230 would probably be more appropriate at this time, but given that Performance Designs is going to take five months to make it then a Storm 210 might be a better choice, but a Silhouette 210 would still be an Expert canopy and not likely a good choice.
What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

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add 20 lbs for an exit weight



I do so wish all my gear, clothes, shoes, everything added up to just 20 pounds.

I would not expect the Storm to be a more docile canopy at the same WL compared to a Sil. I think there might be a little bias or something going on to make their loading chart give that impression.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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My personal experience with a Silhouette 190 loaded at 1.16 is that its not at all a high performance canopy. In fact, I find it to be rather docile and easily able to get me out of a tight spot. I bought that canopy as my first own canopy, and coming from a mishmash of student rental canopies (solo 210, spectre 210 and 190, etc.) it didn't feel like a big step up. I feel the suggested wingloads and skill levels by PD are very conservative, maybe even to the point of recreating the Navigator-style of flying (I have yet to find the difference between a Silhouette and a Navigator other than the sizes and the name.)

It's lightly tapered, but every opening I had with it was nice and sweet. Even six turns of twists was no problem, as the canopy just picked a heading and flew straight, giving me plenty of time to get the twists out.

I can't really say much about the flare. I think it has plenty, but my only real reference in that respect is a Lightning...

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Buying your own gear at just 30 jumps is perhaps a bit early. You are rapidly adding skills at each jump and you do not have a lot of experience. Maybe consider renting different types and sizes and find out what you like most?

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http://parachutistonline.com/feature/downsizing-checklist

A great article and things you should be able to do prior to changing the size of the canopy you are flying.

Also has exercises to go practice and demonstrate these things.

The first 4 are essential. Number 6 is good as well.

5 and 7 in my opinion are for more advanced flying and certainly not something you should be doing at 30 jumps.

But there is a lot going into the decision of what size and type of parachute you want to buy. size is only one factor. I think a 230 is fine for you, and yes you will probably get bored with it prior to 180 jumps.

But you probably will also not be laying on the ground with a bone sticking out of your leg either.

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skycatcher68



Storm 210

Advanced: 242
Expert: 263

Silhouette 210

Expert: 231

So a Storm 210 would be an Advanced canopy at that weight, but a Silhouette 210 would be an Expert canopy.

a Silhouette 210 would still be an Expert canopy and not likely a good choice.



Excuse me for selectively editing out things from your post. But: a Storm 210 is still considered by Performance Designs to be a canopy for Advanced pilots at that weight.

The OP has a few dozen jumps. In five months he (or she) is going to have some more jumps. But do you think in that time enough will have been made to become an "advanced" canopy pilot? It would nominally be a less inappropriate choice for a new jumper, but can you recommend it in good conscience?

Unless you decide that everyone over a hundred jumps or so is "advanced" (and I'd love to hear what PD have to say about that) then neither of them is really OK.

To the OP: I have no positive recommendation here, and I'm not your instructor or the CSPA. But seriously, don't get the 190.

I have a general principle I try to apply to skydiving advice I get from people more experienced than myself (of whom there are many, with may different opinions): if two sources disagree, pick the more conservative one. It has not kept me 100% safe or even 100% uninjured, but it's done all right.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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Finding a rig that holds a 230 is not hard, actually I am selling one right now.
While I am guilty of wanting to downsize fast, my motivation is clear to me: I like speed and I want to get to swooping eventually.

However I see many that are not interested in swooping and just want to get down safely, but yet they want to downsize.
Often to fix issues with the current canopy...
Downsizing is never a solution unless your problem is lack of speed, and even then technique can do a lot for you.

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jumpsalot-2

Maybe the answer would be the Silhouette should not be loaded so heavily unless flown by an expert.



It also varies person to person. My first canopy was a Silh 210 and I'm pushing 240 out the door. I think it flies just fine but I did notice the flare was different than the safire 2 I was flying.

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radical_flyer

What's different about a silhouette that would make it dangerous? It's not that high performance is it? The description says "lightly tapered" which I think generally means it's not that aggressive. I've only jumped volts and pilots so I don't really know anything about different how different canopies handle, just that a fully eliptical like a katana for instance would be insanely aggressive and prone to spinning up, even at a conservative wing loading.



Silhouette is an hybrid construction, top skin is ZP, bottom skin is F-111, hence it is less recommended to push the WL envelope in the higher spectrum. It is designed to be flown conservatively at lower wingloadings, so it might not play nice and scale progressively above 1.4ish (in fact, 1.2, according to PD, but PD WL charts are too conservative to be taken seriously).

At moderate to high WLoadings, full ZP constructions are the only way to go.
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With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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TheRealDBish

Hey guys, I'm new to the sport (~30 jumps) and I'm looking at buying my own rig for next year. I've been doing a lot of research about what is out there and I feel like I'm getting a good idea of what I'd like to buy, but I'm not entirely sure of what main canopy size I should get.

The PIM (Canadian SIM) says that for someone of my size (6'5" 215lb) I should be jumping no less than a 230sqft until ~180 jumps. I intended to follow this until everyone at my dz said that I should get a 210 (riggers/coaches) or even a 190 (other people).

Some of the reasons suggested to get a 210:

- I'm already loading the 290sqft student rig at about 0.95

- I'll want to downsize to 210 right away. 230 canopies and containers are harder to find. I'll want to be able to downsize more on the same container

- Guys my size had 210 as first rig and used it for 250 or so jumps

- I'm taking a canopy course in a couple weeks (on a student rig) and I'll have the skills to handle a 210

No way am I going to buy a 190 but I'm not sure if I listen to the manual recommendation more or the coaches that know me. I trust these guys with my life so I assume they know what is good for me personally, but I still feel like the manual wouldn't say so firmly not to downsize past recommendations unless it was really important.

Any advice from you guys would be appreciated!



Being ready for a 210 and living through the first landing are two entirely different things. How much gear are you wearing to load a 290 @ .95??? You said you weigh 215, so according to my calculations you would need 60 lbs of gear. That same 60 lbs of gear plus your weight on a 210 puts you at 1.31: a big jump especially when considering a different canopy planform. I personally know that larger canopies are hard to find and sell, but they are out there. Go with your gut, unless getting old isn't a priority.

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I'd love to try out some rentals but my dropzone is tiny and only has the student rigs for rental. One person said I can borrow their container that should fit me and put in another persons 206 sqft that they offered up. I'd like to give that a shot to see how I like a smaller canopy, here's hoping I have a nice landing I guess.

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I'm about 215 plus clothes and accessory gear, and whatever I ate/drank probably add 10. The student gear is pretty bulky so I'd say at least 30 ir more for the rig. I stood on a scale with the rig once and was just under 260.

Accounting for a sport rig to be a little lighter I'd say that puts my exit weight to 250ish which is a 1.2 WL on a 210.

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I just bought my first gear at jump 60ish. I also had over 100 paragliding flights too. I'm not a super skilled pilot by any means. I'm 215ish and my main is a Safire 2 210. On my fifth jump I reached up to pop the brakes and my right toggle came off in my hand. I was able to land on rear risers which lot of people admitted they had never done. I was glad I didn't have a 190 lol.

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The step from 0.9 to 1.2 WL is quite a significant one. I wouldn't be comfortable taking that step without at least some jumps on a 230sqft in between.

Furthermore, is the PIM considered to be The Law, or merely a guideline of sorts. If it is The Law, your next canopy must be a 230. If it is a guideline, you better have some solid fact-based reasons to go beyond it. As already mentioned, everyone thinks themselves to be an above-average canopy pilot. But can you prove that you are, maybe through having followed several canopy control courses and demonstrating you can squeeze a lot more than usual out of your current canopy?

Also, have a look at Brian Germain's canopy sizing chart. It has some great bits about the why of canopy sizes, and what should influence the decision (like altitude above MSL of your DZ). http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

In summary, with that kind of wingloading I would suggest a 230sqft. It's easier to downsize once the 230 becomes boring than it is to upsize once you're in hospital with broken legs.

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TheRealDBish

My landings are usually very good. I have been landing off a lot lately though due to a combination of not the best spotting and just not being able to get any wind penetration on the student canopies. Thats part of the reason I'd like a smaller canopy with a better glide ratio.



Am I the only one reading this? As a student you should be getting some of, if not THE best spotting available. Something aint adding up here.

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FrontRoyalty

***My landings are usually very good. I have been landing off a lot lately though due to a combination of not the best spotting and just not being able to get any wind penetration on the student canopies. Thats part of the reason I'd like a smaller canopy with a better glide ratio.



Am I the only one reading this? As a student you should be getting some of, if not THE best spotting available. Something aint adding up here.

At large, turbine DZs, long jump runs with multiple groups means only a few get the "ideal" spot. The others get out early or late of that spot. However, procedures should be adjusted so that NO ONE is consistently landing out. One solution is to make 2 or more passes at altitude.

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