Final Onyx Demo Review

[roq 0]

No! I mean that they don't have the same support that the pilot PD,PA and Icarus

Roq

[ManBird 0]

Warrior -- not much info. According to one web site, this canopy was forst developed in 1997. That's all I know.

http://www.paraavis.com/parachutes/main/warrior/

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[diveout 0]

There are plenty of guys who are indepent swoopers that have no major canopy sponsorship (they don't get one for free). Even a schmuk like me can get 40% off if I look hard enough and ask the right people the right questions.

They come to the tour events and place well, occasionally beating out the sponsored guys for a spot in the top ten or top five and make it onto the prize stage.

Even the independent guys who can buy whatever they want with their hard earned money haven't made the decision to buy this canopy. This is because the other wings that are out there are better performing parachutes-- the buzz from people like me who have demo jumped the thing is that it was a nice try but it needs some work to compete with current designs.

[mnischalke 0]

Quote

He even has a name for it, but I won't post it for fear of someone else snagging it and using it. If I recall correctly, that's exactly what happened to Brian Germain when he mentioned what he was going to call his crossbrace. PdF promptly took the name "Ninja" and slapped it on their braced canopy (which didn't get much ex
posure).

Smart move.

Actually, that might have happened to Brian a couple times according to this.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[DancingFlame 0]

Corret, first Warrior was designed in 1997.
But only in 2002 it began to fly really good.
Warrior has a four-cell cross-braced design, very similiar to Onyx (well, I'd say Onyx has design similiar to Warrior).
However, Warrior is not released yet. ParaAvis wants to test it before it go to the market. Any minor mistake with such aggressive canopy and pilot will be dead, so no mistakes are allowed.

[skygod7777 0]

will it (the warrior) be available to the U.S. market? or mainly in russia/europe? or do you know?

i imagine it, or the proto type will be at PIA if the company goes.

later

[roq 0]

About the lines size I can inform you that for example the VX 79 have Span bottom 466 centimeters and A line lengt 248 centimeters. the Onyx 75 have a Span bottom 423 centimenters and A line 229,5 centimeters.
This gives a larger rate of length of lines for Onyx (54,25% of the span) than the VX 79 (53,21% of the span)
It demonstrate that the lines of the onyx are not shorter than for example the VX
What happens it is that VX has a span and larger area than the onyx.

Roq

[roq 0]

"Even the independent guys who can buy whatever they want with their hard earned money haven't made the decision to buy this canopy. This is because the other wings that are out there are better performing parachutes-- the buzz from people like me who have demo jumped the thing is that it was a nice try but it needs some work to compete with current designs."


How can you sustain that statement?
Do how many Onyx or other unknown canopys exist in the swoop competitions in the USA? A few or none! There everyone have VE, or VX or Xaos. All people following the sponsored factory pilots.
Here in the europa not it is always like this. See for example the classifications of this competition in Germany where the canopys non cross-braced was more far away than the cross-braced.

http://www.swooping.de/docs/scoring_hoexfinal.htm

Roq

[cobaltdan 0]

a couple years ago Atair did sponsor a pro swoop team. after a full year of competition Eric Butts was ranked 9th overall competing on a 120 comp cobalt ! a 9 cell vs about 160 x-braced pro competitors.

we proved our point that we could be highly competitive.

why dont we still sponsor a pro-swoop team, basically because the return on the investment does not make enough financial sense and we dont feel we have anything to prove anymore.

the onyx has basically only hit the streets for about a month now. give it time and i think you will see them in serious competition next season by competitors looking for an edge.

sincerely,

daniel preston
atair <><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[Treejumps 0]

Quote: "a couple years ago Atair did sponsor a pro swoop team. after a full year of competition Eric Butts was ranked 9th overall competing on a 120 comp cobalt ! a 9 cell vs about 160 x-braced pro competitors." and

"we dont feel we have anything to prove anymore"

This should be a fine marketing slogan for Atair. You should start off by saying, back when we were still copying the Stilletto, because we hadn't yet figured out that these cross barce thingys were gonna be so popular, our pro team managed 9th place. We figured hey, we ain't likely to ever do any better than that so why bother to keep competing since we really don't care what anyone thinks of our products anyway. Why would any company feel like they have to keep proving themselves to paying customers in a slow moving sport where technological improvements are non existant, and one wingy thingy is the same as the next.

Very nice work, very nice indeed.


And don't forget: "the onyx has basically only hit the streets for about a month now"

Even though it was advertised on the entire back page of Parachutist something like a year ago.

The entertainment never ends.

[cobaltdan 0]

tree, if anyone says anything about atair there going to say we are original. there is no copying canopies here. the stilletto and cobalt have nothing in common. in fact the cobalt is one of the only canopies that does not use the same airfoil as a stilletto. as to eric placing 9th, there was no luck involved, this was averaged out across a year of competition, pure pilot skill and canopy design. If he was doing the circuit this year with the same canopy he would still place top ten.

And yes the onyx was advertised last season and yes hit the streets this season. we are nothing if not overly diligent and cautious in our testing. something i think no one will complain about.

sincerely,

daniel preston
atair <><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[diveout 0]

Dan,

--Why were the canopies mis-labeled?-it would be simple to put new labels on a small demo fleet

--Why did the design end up with a quick speed-bleeding end to a short recovery arc and spectra for lines? How about the tiny slider?

--Why did my "105" (originally labeled a 95) demo open like an explosive device? It was horrible. Please don't suggest that it had anything to do with pilot chute size or packing technique, or ask if I was dumping in a track. I tried EVERYTHING that I considered safe to slow the inflation of that thing.

I won't speculate about the success of a pro-pilot, but this wing is not going to give anyone a competitive advantage.

The design is different and the customer service was actually pretty good during the process of getting a demo. Kudos. It's OK that the wing isn't everything it's cracked up to be. But, let's see one fly at a PST event and actually place top ten.

No more to prove huh? that's a larf dude...

From one Dan to another:

prove that you have the resources to sponsor a small number of competitors who are willing to fly your product. Prove that these guys have confidence in the ONYX. Prove over the next three or four major meets that the ONYX is a competitive design and guys like me who've flown it and don't like it might start to change our tune. Let's see someone wearing an Atair logo up on the reward stage collecting a check for their success FLYING AN ONYX. Pro prize money goes to at least 5th or 7th place on the PST.

[Treejumps 0]

Quote: "as to eric placing 9th, there was no luck involved"

I never said it was luck, and given the canopy he was flying, he had to have it very dialed in to be competitive.

"If he was doing the circuit this year with the same canopy he would still place top ten"

Well, you would have to put yor money where your mouth (cursor) is to back this up. I doubt it. When Eric pulled 9th, the year was 2000, I believe. At that time people were still flogging their non-croass brace canopies and remaining marginally competitive (as I also recall Craig G. took 3rd on a Stilleto 107 at the PSN). The X-brace revolution was just picking up momentum, and its light years from where it was then. These days, forget it. There is no way anybody is going to flog a stilleto, or comp cobalt into a medal at any PST or equivalent meet.

There is much to be proven with all this talk. Put up or, well you know how the rest of it goes.

Cya.

Tree

One final one: "we are nothing if not overly diligent and cautious in our testing"

Thats not what it look like when the Troll was rushed to market. Without the vents it was completely innappropriate for BASE.

By all means, good luck with building good canopies. I hope you can come up with something groundbreaking. To date it appears to me that Atair is a step or two behind.

[ManBird 0]

Quote

a couple years ago Atair did sponsor a pro swoop team ... a 9 cell vs about 160 x-braced pro competitors.

I agree with tree here. The mix between nine-cell elliptical and x-braced was much more even than it is now. People were competing on Crossfires and Vengeances, and even a Spectre showed up here and there. Giant eggs thought for themselves and black was a type of toothbrush. Point being, there's no freaking way that anybody on a Cobalt is going to make it anywhere in today's competitions. Check out PSTs results page. Look at the canopies, the competitors, the distances, and the speed. And then look at those tamales.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click