how not to look dangerous swooping at 1.25 WL?

[pchapman 261]

[This gets a bit long - no need to read if you don't want to. I'm just trying to get opinions on one aspect of my own swooping.]

The situation I'm in is that lately I've been doing 360 degree front riser dives down to a swoop landing, using a 1.25 wing loaded Sabre 135.

The problem is that some people think my approaches look really dangerous and without much margin for error.

Three factors may theoretically contribute to this perception:
a) that I am taking excessive risks
b) that I am taking excessive risks because I'm flying a canopy with a short recovery arc and 'low energy' compared to high wing loaded ground hungry canopies, "forcing me" to dive at the ground until quite low in order to maintain the desired speed for the swoop.
c) that people are getting too used to seeing the high wing loaded canopies land, without seeing more moderately loaded canopies being flown agressively

Someone under a highly loaded VX might start at 1000' not 500' like me with the Sabre, and get plenty of speed with a moderately banked turn using significant harness input.

I can't get as much harness turn effect with the Sabre, and in the quest for speed, end up using a lot of front riser input, until quite close to the ground, so that the speed doesn't dissipate before the surf.

Also, I'm trying to keep a little bit of curve in the flight almost until touchdown because I just like the visuals, and because of the extra efficiency until the point that the flare starts. Keeping a little turn going maintains a bit of extra dive without much effort (as compared to hanging on double front risers.)

The curve until landing may also make the approach look more dangerous because a casual viewer may say, "he didn't pull out of his 360 dive until that last second".

At least with a short recovery arc canopy, any mistakes in judgement of the dive can be corrected faster. But is that advantage nullified by the need to dive steeper while lower, to avoid the speed loss of the same quick recovery?

My question is rather vague, but I'm wondering what to do to maintain performance without looking scary to others. Some of the problem is the perception issue as described above. It's almost as if I'd be safer or look to be safer under a smaller ground hungrier canopy!

Maybe it is as simple as starting the maneuver higher so that I'll need to do a more steady turning dive, rather than being very steep in a front riser 'hook' at the 270 degree point, before easing out over the last 90.

I haven't been setting out to start the maneuver from as low as possible, but I may be doing a steep, faster turning dive because my first impression is that the front riser pressure is easier to maintain than when doing a longer more moderately banked approach. I may need to compare both methods.

It's hard to theoretically evaluate all the factors that go into the dynamics of a swoop approach, where different turn rates, dive angles, bank angles, and airspeeds all go hand in hand in getting to ground level in the desired direction at zero rate of descent.

I'd like to stay with 360s for the moment, whether or not a 180 or 270 is as or nearly as efficient. A 360 makes for a convenient line up and final wind check before starting the dive to landing.

[velo90 0]

What looks dangerous depends on who's looking.
I watched a swooper land a saphire 139. He looked a bit low for a 270 but that was probaly because I am used to seeing him on much smaller canopies.
When he did a 530° hook I was gob smacked. It looked scary as well. Why did it look scary?
Because...
a) I have never seen a 530° hook before
b) It looked low
c) When he started going round for the second time I was wondering if something had broke on the canopy.

[SkySlut 0]

I agree that it depends on who thinks that it looks scary. For instance, all the hotshots fly xbraced canopies at my DZ...so you get used to seeing hp landings all day long. Then every once in a while one of them will get on a birdman with a TomCat in it...and hook the thing superlow (at least from the xbraced perspective) and it scares the crap out of you...but then you remember..."Hey, its not a Velocity!!!"

That is just my first thought. I am not going to give you any other advice because I havent seen you swoop or know you piloting skills. Who is saying that you are scary??? Is it someone that doesnt jump HP canopies and has low jump numbers and doesnt know the difference??? or is it a shithot swooper on the DZ that "should" know better???

There is a fine line between a "hotdog" and a "weiner".

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Yes, perception certainly has changed. Back in the day (think 1990), when people were toggle whipping PD 9-cells or old Raiders, they were doing so VERY, VERY low. You could not help but gasp. Still, even when we figured out riser dives, the turns on those canopies and their subsequent replacements (Excalliburs, Blue Tracks, Pintails, etc) were still low due to their short recovery arc.

An old friend of mine, Rixter Neely, still owns my original Excallibur 150 in my original Mike Fury built J1 Javelin. He jumps once every two or three years whether he needs to or not..... Last time he was up to visit he broke that thing out and was snapping 180's at less than 200 feet and scaring the piss out of everyone. Pure perception overload for everyone on the ground because we have gone so long without seeing that type of display. Not that every one of us who was jumping then didn't do exactly the same thing back then when those were the only canopies available.

So, what can you do to "stop scaring them?" You already answered your own question, but here's my take:

-use a taller, more carving descent and get the same speed and swoop performance
-don't ever hold your riser down so long you have to dig out of the corner
-don't ever fly your canopy into the ground because you ignored that advice

[jumperconway 0]

Curious as to what canopy the 88 is on your profile. Do you still jump all those canopies or is that just canopy history?

[fatalexpression 0]

I also have the "problem" of a short recovery arc. I jump a Safire2 at 1.3 and start my 270 at about 700 feet. What seems to work for me is initiating the turn with harness. Now, you said that you can't really harness turn your sabre. Have you tried getting your legstraps almost to the crooks of your knees? It really gives you a lot more leverage. Just a suggestion. Hope it all gets sorted.

_________________________________________
Your canopy sucks.

[yardhippie 0]

I was battling the same perception where I jump. I jump a Nitro 120 loaded at about 1.5. Problem is.. it really was my technique that was flawed. Mind you, I belive the theory to be true. I pushed the limits.. and chowed in the weekend before Rantoul 03. Spent that event on a golf cart w/ a broken ankle.
Now an orthropedic surgery later... and LOTS of conversations later... do I realize what it was I was doing wrong. Pushing tooo hard.
I now set up and plan for a full flight landing w/o inputs (to avoid a ground collision)
As I burn off speed and decend the 3 to 6' left to the ground then use inputs to keep the swoop going.

Just my .02 and by all means. Correct me or add to if Im wrong.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[pchapman 261]

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Curious as to what canopy the 88 is on your profile. Do you still jump all those canopies or is that just canopy history?

I do own everything I've listed, tho' in some cases I've had to borrow rigs to fit them in. I like variety and also have picked up a couple older, interesting canopies cheap.

As for the FX 88, I broke my ankle under it last year. It wasn't a dive that got me. When maneuvering in the flare I ran out of lift earlier than expected (my mistake), and caught a foot at a bad angle because of that.

So I figured I'd "go back to basics" for a bit and use the 135 to practice technique before putting the 88 back in the container. (I built a quick-adjust pillow system in the main container.)

[SkySlut 0]

quick repost of my original question...

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Who is saying that you are scary??? Is it someone that doesnt jump HP canopies and has low jump numbers and doesnt know the difference??? or is it a shithot swooper on the DZ that "should" know better???

Edit to ask Why the wide range of canopies??? You said that you owned them, but I am curious...Did you go straight from a 135 Sabre to an FX88

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88,135,154,265,282

[pchapman 261]

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Who is saying that you are scary??? Is it someone that doesnt jump HP canopies and has low jump numbers and doesnt know the difference???
...
Why the wide range of canopies
....
Did you go straight from a 135 Sabre to an FX88

Regarding those questions in particular (and NOT the main issues of the thread):

1) The person who was very concerned was actually the DZ owner. While he flies some medium sized zero-p, he's under an accuracy canopy 99% of the time. On the one hand he's seen plenty of fast landings at the DZ, on the other hand I can't help but feel he doesn't appreciate that I'm trying to be better than last year about following good practices in my approaches. I may be agressive compared to some, but in a much more controlled way than last year. (Like I said, I'll probably try the same approaches, but starting a couple hundred feet higher to hopefully give me similar speed but with a more gradual turn & dive.)
He may also naturally be concerned because of my broken ankle last year, and because years ago someone very close to his family, who swooped very well but agressively, died doing so. Can't fault him for that.

2) I like variety. Accuracy with a Parafoil. Trashing a big F-111, or modifying one to take to Bridge Day. Old-style CRW with a moderate sized F-111. Playing with something weird like the Paraflite Super Evolution 140 (really a 154. Spanwise cascades to every rib, independent A & B risers, no D lines, etc.). Plain fun flying with a zippy but easy to fly Sabre 135. The high speed & careful planning needed with an FX 88. Heck, I went and jumped a ParaCommander once too.

3) I didn't follow a normal progression. Everyone's got a story, and this is how it worked out for me: For 12 years / 500 jumps I only owned a big F-111 canopy, and from time to time borrowed something small from friends to play with. When I did that downsizing in the early to mid 1990s, there wasn't much guidance on "how to downsize". With under 200 jumps I put a 3 or 4 jumps on a 170 as my first ZP, and then did the same with a 160, 135, 120, 120 elliptical, and a Jonathan 92 (that one in no wind.)
When I first bought ZP in '02, it was the Sabre 135, which I had for a few months before getting the 88. I had borrowed both a few times before buying. But that season I didn't get that many jumps on either canopy, because I was doing plenty of instructing (tandems) or flying a big Parafoil to practice for the nationals.
So... I haven't exactly been a poster child for orderly downsizing, of the type where one becomes proficient with a canopy before going down a size.

[SkySlut 0]

I really hate to comment on someone's piloting skills withouth seeing them. So dont take this as a knock on your skills. You could be right...the DZO doesnt know what he/she is talking about. Or you could be wrong, they have seen "scary" pilots that are now dead. Either way, its something to think about.

From what you have said on your posts, my thought is that you most likely are "scary".

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So... I haven't exactly been a poster child for orderly downsizing, of the type where one becomes proficient with a canopy before going down a size.

1. Lack of proficiency before downsizing

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Like I said, I'll probably try the same approaches, but starting a couple hundred feet higher to hopefully give me similar speed but with a more gradual turn & dive.

And 2. It seems as though you are guessing at the technical aspects of swooping. Your first guess at commiting at a specific altitude was wrong so now you are increasing altitude. That leads me to ask what other aspects of swooping are you guessing at??? There is a logical progression to learn how to swoop. Step by step. Little by little. It seems from your posts that you arent following any sort of method, rather you are just doing a trial and error method of teaching yourself. Trail and error education is definately scary when learning to swoop.

That being said, I havent seen you swoop...you could be doing everything right and maybe your communication of what you are doing isnt coming across the internet as well as seeing one of your swoops in person would.

Personally, I give advice on the DZ...if someone is doing something "scary" (doesnt have to be swooping)...I will let them know. I dont want to see them get hurt. Its nothing personal against that person...its personal to me because I care about their wellbeing. Also, when I get advice from someone who I respect personally or professionally...I listen. I dont argue, but just listen. If for some reason I dont agree with the information that they are giving me...I check my other resources and rethink my opinion. Usually, after some more experience...I have found out that most of the time they were right, but I just couldnt see it at the time.

My suggestion is to ask some more people on the DZ that you respect. If you cant find anyone on the DZ that you respect...go to another DZ and get some advice from a shithot swooper. My advice on your swooping really doesnt and shouldnt mean anything...if you are relying soley on advice from the internet to educate yourself on swooping you should go get your head checked...

That being said...Blue Skies, Long Swoops & Soft Landings