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jeremyneas

Whys the limit on the 360?

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Why is it, that even though swooping is progressing, I'm not seeing more and more beyond the 360 speed generating techniques? For instance, a nice 720 front riser...or 1,080's...or 1,440's...?

Have we achieved maximum speed with a 360?

I'm not paying enough attention, they are doing it?

The skill level isn't there to match the judgement of such a high setup?

Adjusting your front riser pressure from hard to soft and hard again is too difficult (strengthwise) to adjust your angle of entry from such an approach?

Makes ya too dizzy?

I'm just curious.

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Most people are still doing not more than a 270, actually. You really don't generate more speed from a 360 as you can prolong a dive from a 270 to gain as much speed as the canopy will take (going to double fronts, slowing the turn to elongate the dive).

-R

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

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Jay Moledzki is the king of multiple rotations!
I'm not sure the most he's done, but I've seen 900.

He starts *very*very high, and winds down in a looong carve.

Lots more speed.

I think it's extremely advanced - and you don't see it much on DZs because there are only a few doing them.

Check out Jay in the upcoming PD Factory Team video . . . :)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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Are you sure that wasn't just for a high AWE-DAMN-Factor? ;>

-R

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Jay Moledzki is the king of multiple rotations!
I'm not sure the most he's done, but I've seen 900.

He starts *very*very high, and winds down in a looong carve.

Lots more speed.

I think it's extremely advanced - and you don't see it much on DZs because there are only a few doing them.

Check out Jay in the upcoming PD Factory Team video . . . :)



You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

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Hmmm... More turns=more speed? I was under the impression that if you can hit the powerband in a 360, or any type of turn for that matter, than you've reached the edge of the performance envelope.

How does doing more rotations increase the speed?

My guess is doing more rotations allows him to maintain the powerband, until he's ready to roll out of the turn. I've been working on this uptop. I'm amazed how easy it is using only harness to speed up and slow down the turns even when you're in the powerband.

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More turns=more speed?



I don't think more 'turns' = more speed, I assumed the longer you hold a more vertical orientation (a dive), the more speed you'll build?

I have no actual experience to speak of. I'm sure there are mathematical equations or theories out there that could make my head explode . . . I mean . . . clear it up for us. ;)

I guess my post was more a response to this:
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I'm not paying enough attention, they are doing it?




edited to add: I'm pretty sure my above mentioned assumption is wrong. :)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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More turns=more speed?



That is not a blanket true statement. There will exist a "canopy terminal velocity" where no matter what you do (keeping your wing flying properly) you will not go any faster than this. It is a matter of physics. At some point the drag will become equal to the ability of your canopy-pilot system to increase in speed. I have seen tests of this done with a GPS that indicated vertical speed and the GPS did not indicate higher descent rates than xx. This was regardless of how many degrees past a certain point you got.

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Hummmm...

I've found that 270s produce the most powerful swoops (speed & distance together) where as I've done 360s and more, I've achieved a bit more speed, but it felt like the canopy maxed out on the speed and started shutting down way too early.

270 is king in my book.

Just my experience.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Pete Alum beat Jay on the Distance round at the last Deland swoop meet, with a swoop of 418 ft. The amazing thing is Pete is strictly a 180 flyer. Also Shannon Pilcher favors the 270 and he holds the current world record (which pete tied). I dont think its exactly the amount of turn its more how clean you fly and how well you set up. Larger degrees of turns look cool though.


Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

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Interesting stuff about Pete Allum being strictly 180. He recently reviewed the Katana in Skydive mag and he implies that his normal is a 270.

I was one of only a handful of people at the ICP world cup doing a 180 and everybody was telling me to up the rotation to 270 to help with accuracy (I didn't want to change my technique during the comp though). I really struggled with the approaches doing a 180 when it started to get downwind - never landed downwind before i got there! ( I came 50th!!!)

Whenever i watched Jay he was doing a 450.

Hey Ray - i'm at deland with my 4 way team 'NRG' from 7th March - i can smell the Icehouse already!
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i think he just likes scaring the whuffo's in the spectator area.


That would be me.B|

I pretty much hit it with 540's, every now and again for fun pull out a 720.
I begin my turns with a front riser but once the turn is initiated I spend the rest of the dive flying my harness.
I am a big advocate of not using double front risers for the reason that it distorts the airflow over the top of the canopy.
Once my turn starts I can torque in my harness to keep it in a dive, and YES it does keep speeding up until I return it to level flight by straightening up in my harness again.
So to answer your question, I see no limit it's just what people feel comfortable with.
BTW, I start my 720 approaches between 900 and a 1000 feet. WEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

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The king of counter-rotating nutty turns in competition is definitely Andy Anderson. He and Mikeal Stevens regularly throw stuff like 180/360 and 360/540 dives. It's incredibly cool to watch, but it leaves a LOT to be desired in terms of accuracy. No matter how much extra speed all that crazy stuff might possibly build up, it's all for naught if you can't make the entrance gates. Vertical extensions= zero points, therefore the great majority of serious swoopers keep the the 270, at least "when it matters."

That said, I know plenty of "beer line" swoopers on dropzones that regularly pull zany death spirals and spit out in whatever direction their parachute is headed when they reach swoop altitude. That stuff impresses whuffos and the like all day long, but unless you can stick that turn through the gates everytime, then not only will it not do you any good at a meet, it's a safety hazard.

Chuck

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the biggest turn i've busted out was a 1080 (3 360's) and other than just looking scary to everyone, it didn't do any good. my swoop wasn't any longer.

i used to do consistant 540's or 720's. i really got into the 540's there for while. there just fun to do. but they are harder to judge where you are going to come out, i could get pretty close most of the time, but i don't think i could hit a gate every time doing one. but with a nice smooth 270, it is much easier to judge a gate hight that you need to go through.

and i have stopped doing all the big turns so i could really dial in my 270's..........ok not completely, i still bust one out every once in a while, like a sunset load when everyone is watching :P:D

later

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I think Tim-Daves astute point was missed somewhere in the thread. There is a discrete "canopy terminal velocity" for each parachute. One it is reached, subsequent heading change is unnecessary.

The trick is to take all that speed into the swoop at a shallow angle in order to preserve as much energy as possible.

The metaphor I often use is skipping rocks off of water. If you throw the rock at the water at a steep angle, it does not matter how hard you throw it or what the shape of the rock is. It will not skip. The secret, as we all have discovered, is to interface with the surface of the water at a shallow angle, with tremendous speed.
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The secret, as we all have discovered, is to interface with the surface of the water at a shallow angle, with tremendous speed.



If I mess up and go skipping across the water sometime I will just tell everyone I was following your advice.;)

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Cute. Crucified on my metaphor again...

Energetically, however, it dies make sense. I sometime use the example of a Space Shuttle re-entering the earth atmosphere, but then I remember that a shallow entry angle will skip you off into space... Burning up when too steep works, well.
Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

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Roger Nelson used to pull off 1080s with his Velo84 - I think he even came close to a full 4 - 4 1/2 rotations.

The swoops were not very long at all when he did those.

By far - the most amazing thing I have seen on landing.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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