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Practicing rear riser manoeuvres at altitude

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I am hoping to learn rear riser landing techniques but realise the necessity to practice at altitude first.

However, when practicing up high, I find it difficult to gauge the right amount of rear riser input to give to level off the canopy. Because there are no references, it is difficult to tell if you have given too much input and caused the canopy to climb again, or not enough - and the canopy does not level off.

Any tips on how to get a feel for it?

All you can really go on is the "pull" effect in the harness since visual references do not help.

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Learning even a little bit about CRW would help.

I usually start people off with a Simon Says dive. Have two people with similar responding parachutes fly next to each other. One hits the front risers and stops. The other one watches and then repeats the maneuver. Next maneuver may be rear risers, and etc.

I hope this helps.

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If you come in on landing on a nice straight-in approach, you can try the rear risers and transefer right to toggles. The idea of practicing up high is the same as practicing your flare up high. You won't be able to gauge exactly when to do it on landing, but you get a feel for how it responds and where that stall point is. The same is true for rear risers. The most important thing to remember when learning rear risers is to do it in baby steps and not to do anything radical. The canopy will respond much more dramatically with very small inputs on the rears so you need to be ready for that.

When you are coming in on final, and still up highere than a normal flare would start, just reach up and grap both rears and barely press outward on them. You don't even have tp pull them down at first to see what will happen with just a small amount of pressure pushing out on the rears. If you want to pull down a little, GO EASY and plan on only pulling about an inch, in a very smooth motion. Once you feel how the canopy responds, just go right to your toggles as if it were a normal landing. As you get more comfortable on each jump, you will be able to get a feel for it and go longer with the inputs. REMEMBER- Go in baby steps and stay smooth. You are not really flaring with the rears as much as you are planing the canopy out. But if you have been practicing swooping, you should know the difference on how you start with toggle input higher with smaller amounts to plane out in a smooth manner rather than a flare to stop and land.

If you ever are on rears and feel the canopy starting to get sluggish and you are getting deeper in the rears, GET TO TOGGLES. It is probaly starting to stall. You never want to get to the point of stall on the rears, especially if you are still off the ground a ways. That is why you should go in baby steps. When you transfer to toggles, do that smooth as well. Do not do anything fast or aggressive.

I know it seems like alot to think about, but it will probably be easier than you think. Just go slow and never get past your comfort point. Have someone who knows about this watch you as well. Still try up high so you get the feel for the rears and how it feels when you get too deep. Also, fly around abit using the rears up high. It all helps to get comfortable and get the feel for them.

Hope this helps.


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On one jump last weekend I pulled straight after exiting at 5,000ft and started practicing, 90° front riser turn, then rear riser input. You can feel what the canopy is doing even if you cannot see exactly how it planes out.
Anyway, continued the front then rear pactice, then came in to land....
I was so tired will all the effort up high, I just flared and landed normally :P

One thing though, I don't like playing about with the risers and toogles with gloves on. I want to be able to feel what I am holding.

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Practice up high until you are comfortable with the feel of it. Find out where the stall point is with the rears and DON'T EVER GO THERE CLOSE TO THE GROUND!

Other than that Chris nailed it right on.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

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My technique for learning involved pulling them down until stall up high in a variety of situations, like in a dive, after a toggle turn, double fronts, etc. I did this for about 200 jumps on the same canopy. Then I thought about going for it coming in a few times and switched to toggles because i was scared. My first few where actually at Rantoul last year...

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Chris - you say that when I'm transitioning to toggles that I should be smooth also.

If I go smoothly to toggles, won't the canopy surge forwards as I ease off on the risers and begin the toggle input? Most of the rear-risering I've seen has involved the jumper stabbing on the toggles -bringing them quickly down just far enough to maintain the same flat glide without interuption.

The remainder of the toggle input would still be quite smooth.

I presume when you talk about smooth transition to toggles, you mean smoothness of flight (although not necessarily smoothness of input) or am I missing something here?

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I was thinking exactly the same thing. If you have the risers pulled down a tiny bit, and let go of them to pull toggles only, the risers will pop back up out of your hands, right? If you're doing that at 15ft just before a normal flare, the risers popping out of your hands won't cause you to dive a tiny bit?

Also... this may sound stupid, but where do you grab your rears? There are no loops, obviously. On the risers themselves, or near the upper end where the lines attach?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Check it yall,

What I think he's trying to get at is this, If you take your swoop so far that you have to make a giant stab to get to the point where your toggles are starting to fly, then you have gone to far. To get the most distance you want to be as smooth as possible on any controll input. If you go a long way on the rears then you are sacrificing the distance that you will do with your toggles, by making that giant stab. Try to think of it this way... Fly your rears untill they become in-efficient, then transfer to toggles. This point will happen a lot sooner than you think. Also if you are going the distance with your rears you run the risk of stalling it. A rear riser stall onset is much smoother than the onset of a toggle stall, but it happens at a much higher airspeed. What I mean by being smoother, is that it really gives little to no indication that it's going to stall. The more you jam on the rears (IE being low or in the corner) the higher the airspeed is going to be when it stalls. Give it a try up high. Do a front riser turn and then jam on the rears like you needed to make a big input (IE being low or in the corner), and watch your pilot chute go straight up above your canopy. TRUST ME when I say you don't want to rear stall these canopy's close to the ground. It sucks when your flying over the ground at 50MPh one second, and half a second later your sliding across the ground at 50mph, all along thinking to your self "What the hell just happened?".

Baby Steps people. Experiment up high. When you think you've got it, practice some more.

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Yes, I mean don't just panic and stab your toggles. You need to be smooth. If you are just into the rears enough to feel the effect, there won't be that much 'lag' to take over with the toggles. What you are describing about people 'stabbing' the toggles at the end of the surf is after the rears become mushy and are losing their ability to fly. Then you need to let go of the rears and immediately go to the point on the toggles where they take up that 'lag' and take over flying the canopy. You should NEVER get to this point up higher in what I am describing.

Are you following me? The transfer from rears to toggles should be smooth. Letting up on the rears, letting the canopy surge, and then stabbing the toggles would definitely not be smooth. I think you will find this much easier than it sounds. That is why I said just go in baby steps.


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So the transfer should be smooth, occouring before the rears get mushy. Is there any other indications of when the "right" time to switch from rears to toggles is? Should you just use the rears to help it plane out then let up right away (but smoothly) so as to let the canopy fly without any distorting input?(akin to tapping the toggles to help start plane out in a non rear riser landing)
T.S.S # 5
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To dream great dreams is itself an act of daring. -Eric Shipton & Bill Tilman
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Brotha,

You are no-where close to feeling as feklempt as I am right now. The Air Force has me doing SP augmentee right now. It's a 14 hour night shift, checking ID's at the gates. I get to carry an M-16, but I havn't had the luxury to shoot at any one yet. I'm just itchin for some officer to get unruly with me!!!! hahaha I'm tired so I'm going to drink my beer and go to bed. Is it so wrong to drink a beer at 0700?

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It is absolutely ok to drink beer at 0700, especially if your in the Air Force. I worked grave shift for 2.5 years at Charleston and we hit the local bar every morning at 0800. The advantage is, you can drive drunk at noon and noone suspects!!! (they just assume your juggleing the cel phone and burger king)

Working tonite? I may do a couple drive bys?

Jeremy
Will reclaim the world for pitys sake!!!

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No,

I'm going to get a few hrs of shut eye, and then drink heavily "All Night Long" as Lionel Ritchy put it. Going back and forth between days and mids is a kiler. I work a couple days and then I'm off for a couple. My sleep schedule keeps juggling back and forth. It sucks. I don't see how fire fighters and paramedics do it. I guess you just get used to it though. I like my bed time at 2030 and get up at 0530. That seems to work the beest for me.

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Quote

I spoke to Joe Bennett (Skymonkey One knows his credentials) about this very thing. His advice was switch to toggles when you would be unable to "pop up" on rears if you desired.

Blue skies
Ian



Correct. Also, just to answer back to Matt and a few others who were asking about the "gap" or "pop" one might get when they go from rears to toggles: you don't pull down on rears; you pull or push them out and/or back. By pulling out/back on the risers (with your toggles over your hands obviously), the slack is naturally taken up by the guide rings when you release the rears. Thus, there is no big gap, pop, or slack-take-up which you envision. This assuming "standard" risers. With trips, you have to do a lot more moving with your arms/hands in order to keep your canopy from "lurching" or falling off as you catch up with the control line slack. It is for exactly that reason that I gave up jumping triple risers. I loved the "feel" and flatter airfoil potential they afforded in certain circumstances, but they were just a pain in the ass to deal with for modern rear-riser swoop landings.

Chuck

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