in order to swoop do you need to do a hook turn?

[zahiv 0]

in order to swoop do you need to do a hook turn?

...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return...
blue sky
Asaf

[ianmdrennan 2]

No. Todays parachutes have sufficient forward speed to carry the jumper for a distance over the ground. I've landed my velo in straight a couple of times and got rather nice swoops out of it.

Now, of course, if you want to extend your distance then the more speed the further you'll go .

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[lazyfrog 0]

I don't think so...
but as said, it depends the distance yu want to swoop...

----------
Fumer tue, péter pue
-------------
ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[Spizzzarko 0]

Allright, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to tell you. Then I'm going to tell you. Then I'm going to tell you what I told you.

To answer you question, no. You do not need to perform a turn to get you canopy to "Swoop". Therea re a couple of alternate techniques that you can use to get a dynamic plane out, or "Swoop", from your canopy. The first technique I'm going to explain will be the surge approach. The second technique commonly used to "Swoop" with out a "Hook Turn" is the double front riser diving approach. Let's take a little time and learn a more in-depth explanation of these two techniques.

You can get a decent swoop from just full flight! Some people do a surging approach, where the fly in deep brakes and then put the canopy into full flight. Then canopy surges forward creating a pendulum effect with your body, and when your body swings back under the canopy it kind of planes out a little on it's own giving you a little more distance than just landing in full flight. You will see some tandem masters do this. However, you might want to take precations when doing this. If you use the surge technique, and surge it to low to the ground, it's the same a doing a low hookturn. Now the canopy is diving and you would need to plane the canopy out and have your body swing under the planed out canopy. Again the pendulum effect. If you hit the ground while in this pendulum your impact would equal the force of the canopy's flight plus your mass swinging forward into the ground.
Kind of sucks if you knoiw what I mean.

Some people will do a double front riser approach to dive their canopy towards the ground to build up speed on final approach. This is a good way to learn to swoop because you don't have to worry about a turn. Also you are flying a recognizable pattern for every one else to see. When doing this you would want to practice up high first. Some canopy's build up pressure in the wing it's self making it hard to keep the fronts pulled down (especially if you are a girlie man like TWNSND, hahahahaha). You will also hit a point where the canopy will no longer speed up no matter what imput you are giving it. When you hit this point the canopy will actually slow down because of the added drag that you are causing by the input of a controll surface. If you watch the pro-swoopers like TWNSND, you will notice that a lot of them will do their turn and then put the canopy back into full flight. This allows the canopy to accellerate after the turn because the wing is in it's cleanest configuration. I bet that just blows your mind! Now the canopy is accellerating in full flight but it too will reach a point were it will no longer go any faster, and it will want to plane out a little on it's own. Idealisticly you would want to be at your entry point in your swoop now, and using as little input as you need to keep your canopy at a certain altitude above the ground. Personally I like to keep my hips at the same altitude as if I were standing up. In this position I can bring my legs up and create less drag, or I can keep my legs down so they are at the perfect height for running. It sucks to have to step down and be running at the same time, and I don't care what any one else says, nut it's a pain in the ass to run if your really low to the ground. I have never seen anyone go very fast in the duck walk position.

So let's review what I have taught you here. First of all you don't need to do a "Hook Turn" to get your canopy to "Swoop". There a several ways you can do this. The surge approach is one way, but realize it has it's limitations and can be rather dangerous if not well timed. The other common approach is using double fronts to dive your canopy down, but like the surged approach it takes practice, timing, and a certain amout of skill. As allways please be carefull out there it's not you who is going to kill yourself, but some one else doing something stupid. Don't be that person.

I hope this has educated you and the rest of the reading audiance on two of the many facets of canopy flight. Thank you for your attention, and as always if you have any questions, please feel free to get in touch with me.

[AggieDave 6]

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it depends the distance yu want to swoop...

I've seen folks swoop 300ft by just doing a harness turn. Of course, its a VERY long harness carve and this guy went about 270degs for his approach, but it was all very smooth and just as good as a swoop as most folks get by hooking the piss out of their canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jerry81 10]

I've managed without hooking so far. Of course, I don't trust myself well enough yet to start with front riser turns to final, but double fronts work well for learning and I can always do a downwinder if I want more speed and distance. (Laughable compared to what any average swooper can do, but I don't mind taking it easy, given that I've already taken most of the risk I'm willing to accept with the canopy I'm flying).

---

[Spizzzarko 0]

In all actuality, a harness carve is the most efficiant way to turn your canopy. Why is this so you may ask? Well let me explain. When you are pulling down on your three major controll inputs, fronts, rears, and toggles, you are creating drag by making a distortion in the wing that sticks out into the airstream. When you are only using a harness for controll input, it distorts the wing in a way as to not create any more drag than in full flight. As we have all learned from my last post, full flight is the cleanest configuration of your canopy. If you put your canopy back into full flight anfter a high performance turn up high and just listen, you will notice that your canopy will actually speed up a little. Why do I say listen? Well it's hard to tell minute speed changes with your eyes when you are high above the ground. As Aggie Dave, our vocal Texan has said, there is much speed created in a harnes turn. The more speed we carry into landing, the more distance we get in our "Swoops".

[zahiv 0]

Thanks Spizzzarko for the input

now that you menshion it in my DZ the tandem do use the surging approach and I did wander why the where relasing the braks just before thouch down (now I know).
nest time I jump (hope next weekend) I will try both approaches (up high). I jump 230-260 navigator, I dont have my oun rig so I have to rent from my DZ.
On mains that size will Ifeal the increase in speed? After I open the main I feel like I am in ana elevator "press ground" (with a little wind it's like I am standing in place).

...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return...
blue sky
Asaf

[Spizzzarko 0]

Oh yes you will feel quite a bit of accelleration when doing the surge approach. It all depends on how much brakes you are using. You don't need to fly it around near the stall point, but using less the 25% brakes won't give you much of a surge.

[kaerock 1]

Pulling a front or rear riser creates more drag? By making a distortion that sticks out into the air-stream? Pulling a riser does change the shape of the canopy yes, but not causing more drag. You're basically causing a deformation that changes the angle of attack of the entire wing or part of it. It seems to me that the only increase in drag comes because of an increase in airspeed caused by the resultant diving of the canopy. Pulling a toggle, on the other hand does cause the canopy to drag by deforming it much more drastically at the rear outside edges. Harness turns cause much more even and subtle changes in the wing shape, yes, but it's not more efficient because it doesn't make a distortion that "sticks out into the air-stream".

-R

Quote

In all actuality, a harness carve is the most efficiant way to turn your canopy. Why is this so you may ask? Well let me explain. When you are pulling down on your three major controll inputs, fronts, rears, and toggles, you are creating drag by making a distortion in the wing that sticks out into the airstream. When you are only using a harness for controll input, it distorts the wing in a way as to not create any more drag than in full flight. As we have all learned from my last post, full flight is the cleanest configuration of your canopy. If you put your canopy back into full flight anfter a high performance turn up high and just listen, you will notice that your canopy will actually speed up a little. Why do I say listen? Well it's hard to tell minute speed changes with your eyes when you are high above the ground. As Aggie Dave, our vocal Texan has said, there is much speed created in a harnes turn. The more speed we carry into landing, the more distance we get in our "Swoops".

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Spizzzarko 0]

I beg to differ. I do agree that you change the shape of the wing with a riser input, but you DO cause a buckle or deformation of the wing that causes drag. Look closely at pictures of people using rears and fronts and you will see what I'm talking about. It's a little harder to see on cross braced canopy's because of the cross braces reducing the distortion, but it's there. I will also agree that the canopy does create a lot of drag itself. I believe that drag is increased 4 times when speed is doubled, but I could be wrong about that. Hook and Swoop knows better. As far as the harness turns goes you are not making the distortion in the wing that you are making with risers so it is more of an effeciant dive. Maybee hook or some aeronautical engineers can chime in and help us both figure it out.

[twnsnd 1]

Uhhhhhh? I think you meant to say pro leg buster or something closer to the truth like pro ankle stinger. Thanks for the mention. Ironically, since I quit the gym I have started doing more turns from full flight. It's physically more difficult, but mentally less difficult for me to execute a good clean turn this way. By the way, HOW WAS THE POND OH MASTER? Peace out Beeeatch!

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[Spizzzarko 0]

That eloy pond is cold this time of year. But it's fairly clean... No Sars death hunta in those ponds. Trust me I know. hahahahaha

[stevebabin 0]

What's a hook turn?

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[lazyfrog 0]

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Of course, its a VERY long harness carve and this guy went about 270degs for his approach, but it was all very smooth and just as good as a swoop as most folks get by hooking the piss out of their canopy.

it seems to me if you manage to build up a good speed progressively, it can be very efficient and less dangerous as a radical hook turn.

----------
Fumer tue, péter pue
-------------
ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What's a hook turn?

Looks like you were joking here, so I'll just quote Kevin Gibson:

"A hook turn is when a turn goes bad and you have to go to the hospital".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[davelepka 4]

Please don't try to swoop a Navigator. The surge approach the tandems are doing is for VERY experienced pilots only. A double front approach is far safer, but impossible to do with a tandem canopy. If given the option, TI's would use a double front over the surger approach.

With a Nav, the riser pressure will similarly discourage a double front approach. The surge approach will have to be performed at an extremely low altitude to work with a canopy of that size. Big canopies have almost no recovery arc, and need to be swooped form a dangerously low altitiude. I have used the double front, and surge approach with a big Nav, and you need to do this at less than 75 ft for it to work (I had 3000+ jumps at the time).

Your thoughts need to be on accuracy, landing patterns, and safety under canopy. When you donwsize to your own gear, say a 190 or 170 ZP, you will find that a straight in approach in winds under 10 knots, can give a 20 or 30 ft swoop. When you can perforn this, then think about a double front approach (with coaching from an experienced swooper).

[zahiv 0]

If I wasnt clear I am not going to swoop with the Navigator for 2 reasons I dont have the experience and my DZ wount let me do it.
What I will do is play with the canopy at altitude before comeing in for landing.
I am going to be in the sport along time so I will learn to swoop and thing but in time.

...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return...
blue sky
Asaf

[BrianSGermain 1]

Good for you.
Patience is a virtue of the survivor.
+

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
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[divnswoop 0]

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The surge approach the tandems are doing is for VERY experienced pilots only

This method is a very good tool to have in your pocket, but will bite you FAST! The last guy I watched do it wrong hasn't walked or fed himself in
a month. It demands all of your attention. You shouldn't use it just to stay close to the camera man. The number 1 priority using this maneuver is coming out of brakes at the proper altitude. It's very easy to get sucked into holding the brakes to long and underestimating the surge. Swoop

[Designer 0]

No way!I get great swoops with hard 90 degree toggle turn at 100ft in no wind(low wind)conditions.(my fav)No way do I consider myself more than an advanced pilot.Leave hook turns to the experts and you will live to be a happy old pilot.