rhino 0 #1 January 25, 2004 I'm curious.. Anyone who's jumped the Crossfire2 and some of the airlocked canopies... I'm trying to compare the 2.. What are the differences in flight.. Does the airlocked canopy swoop as far as the xf2? Does it go as fast? Can it turn as fast? The XF2 is a bad ass canopy.. Very responsive in all aspects of flight. The only thing I've jumped that turns faster is the Diablo.. The XF2 is the best all around canopy I've jumped.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 19 #2 January 25, 2004 There are a few different airlock designs out there. The Lotus, the Samauri, the Jedei, the Vengence... You need to be more specific on what you are looking for. Even the Jedei and Sam fly totally different and they are based on the same general design. Yes, the Sam will go Dirt- water- dirt at Zhill's pond (150 feet) so its got distance capibility. Fast turns do not always translate to long swoops.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #3 January 25, 2004 i've jumped a few xfire 2 's (89, 105) and a vengence 97. the vengence doesn't dive near as much as the xfire. i guess the turns are about the same, but i don't really care how fast or slow a canopy turns so i'm not reall too sure. as far as a swoop, i could get a longer swoop on the crossfires than the vengence, but everyone's different. some may be able to get a longer swoop under a vengence than a crossfire. i can't speak for the samuri or the jedi, because i have never jumped them. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #4 January 25, 2004 QuoteSam will go Dirt- water- dirt at Zhill's pond (150 feet) so its got distance capibility. it's 180, but as much as vern hits the bank, it may be 185 now and to add to that, a xfire goes dirt-water-dirt on the same pond. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #5 January 25, 2004 I cleared the entire pond at the convention with NO PROBLEM on numerous occasions.. Phree. I know turn doesn't = swoop distance.. I just like twitchy canopies.. Keep the input coming.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #6 January 26, 2004 I looked at the XF2 the Vengence and the Sam. I ended up with the Sam. Thought the canopy's were similar but the XF2 was twitcher and openings seemed to have much more "hands On". The Vengence seemed the twitchest in flight and on opening but you kinda had to let the canopy go where it wanted to go before taking over. As for turning they were all similar, fast and no huge problem with oversteer, or maybe I just dont notice it that much anymore. Seems to me that the XF2 dived more but all dive nicely. As for swooping, all things being equal, I was happier with the Sam in the swoop probably due to its low speed lift which I felt was better. I can go from 200-250 with my Sam pulling a easy carving 180-270. If I go with rears i can get a little more. That is not killing myself at trying to go really long, but even then at that distance, a respectable swoop. I admit I have gone much shorter trying to go longer but also have gone longer. Overall very happy with its swooping. I am only loading it at ~1.7. I think I might be a better off swoop wise if I was on the 120 Sam not the 136. The canopys are above the Stilettto class canopy but not up to the X-braced line. Both are probably happiest performance wise in the 1.85 range before a noticable drop in performance. The deciding factor for me was not $ since I could get good deals on any of them at the time of deciding and in general the performance was equal. What put it over the edge for me was that I liked the concept of airlocks and along with previous experience with Brian and a Jedi. He is great to talk to and if you get into it (technical stuff) with him he can really get you interested then, the best part in my opinion, deliver on what he said..... I am not sure what your looking for here, but for reasons noted above I am happy with my Sam and thought the other canopies had their good and bad points! Just my $0.02 Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #7 January 26, 2004 Thing is I would like to stay in the 1.95 to 2.0 range.. How are the airlocked canopies at 2.0 loading?? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 19 #8 January 26, 2004 What canopy? You need to specify a canopy. The Lotus probally won't do that well at a high loading. Call BigAir and PD and get demos... Brian has demo Samauri 95's and 105's already and PD has Vengence 97's and 107's ready to ship. Those 2 canopies fly so different that the only thing they have in common is they have Airlocks.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 January 26, 2004 QuoteThose 2 canopies fly so different Can you describe the difference in flight for me? Or do I just need to jump them... Does the Sam hold it's own at 1.95ish? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 January 26, 2004 Couldn't tell you about a Sam, but I have jumped a Vengence at 1.9 and a Xf2 at 1.9. The Vengence doesn't dive quite as fast nor does it turn quite as fast as a Xf2, but it seems like the Vengence could hold a dive a bit longer. Also, the Vengence is weird, as you slow down in your swoop it just keeps going. As you get slower towards the end, you think its over and you get more distance. It was pretty cool, actually. Although, I enjoyed the Xf2 more then the Vengence, I was getting the same kind of swoops, but the Xf2 was faster and could cut into the wind better. That's just my experience with those canopies, I'm sure others would contradict me, since the only way for you to know, is to go jump it!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #11 January 27, 2004 Cool.. Good comparison.. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #12 January 27, 2004 The Ven also has a much steeper glide than the Sam at full flight, and the Ven has heavier toggle pressure. I've also found that the Sam wants to stay in the dive longer than the Ven. Sorry, only jumped the XF (wasn't impressed), not the XF2._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #13 January 27, 2004 Can you go up to a 2.0 load with these canopies (XF2, Samurai and Vengeance) and get good swoops/landings, yeah and here is my reasoning: Different factors come into play when you flare a canopy with lots of speed. The best part we realize is the translating of the speed you generated during either full flight or a HP landing approach into lift. You also see an increase in drag while creating the lift. While you slow, from the drag being generated, the canopy starts to lose its "Potential Lift" (speed) and more riser or toggle input is needed to keep the lift higher then the suspended weight. The amount of lift being is affected by airflow over the distorted portion of the canopy, just like a wing (speaking in general terms and theories). Smooth airflow over your wing creates lift and a canopy will only generate “x” amount of lift at any given speed based on wing shape and distortion. We all shoot to smoothly translate the speed we have into just the right amount of lift to hold the suspended weight in horizontal flight while keeping the canopy distortion to a minimum. “Non-braced” High Performance canopies (stiletto class) tend to start showing some drop when over 1.7 to 1.8 (rule of thumb). Sure you can land and swoop a non-braced canopy at higher loads but the best performance envelope may just be a little lighter. Basically there is only so much lift a canopy can generate at slower speeds. Sure you will be flying fast but since the canopy is becoming more distorted as it slows it starts to stop generating the lift needed for the heavier load sooner. The canopy stops flying at a faster speed and find yourself having to run or slide. A “braced” canopy tends to keep the distortion down and increases the amount of smooth airflow over the wing through a broader speed range. There are a different levels of Bracing, X-braced and Leading Edge braced. Airlocks on a canopy can be looked at like a leading edge X-brace. The XF2 does not have the airlock but instead has a "partially formed" leading edge. Both of the designs generate a similar effect. They each help too keep up the pressure inside a parachute, which creates both a stable leading edge and a smoother top surface during slow flight. I think most people agree that these two designs step up the performance to levels higher then seen with a non-braced canopy but not all the way to the X-braced designed canopies. Based on those thoughts, yes, you should be able to load either of these designs at loads of 1.95 to 2.0. Icarus recommends the upper end is at about 2.1 and I would guess that the Samurai and Vengeance are about the same. This is a step up in loading performance from the traditional non-braced HP canopies but still below the loads commonly seen with X-braced canopies Both designs are doing a similar job but with different engeinering paths to get there. Performance differences now can start to be seen and described in terms of wing design differences. What I mean may be able to be seen when looking at only the different “airlocked” canopies. There is a huge performance difference based not on the “bracing” of the canopy but on the design of the wing. End result, as I see it, is going to be pilot preference. The canopies will all go to the load range you want and should be fine flying at that weight. Mind you they will all fly differently since they are different designs. I found the Veng wanted to fly more steeply then my Sam. I found the Veng to be more twitchy then the XF2 but the XF2 may turn slightly faster. The Sam seems to give better low end lift. The only true way for you to decide on “which canopy” performs the way you like, is for you to jump them. What I like and feel may be different then what you like and want. There are many generalizations that can be agreed to and some are noted above from me and others. The only way to find the canopy that best fits you needs and wants is to Demo, not a bad deal though to have to go and demo canopies…. I liked the Sam better then the others, some other people may like the XF2. You have a XF2, get a demo of the Veng or the Sam and compare at similar loadings. Have fun!! Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AntiPinkChrissy 0 #14 January 27, 2004 Hey Rob, I have a Samurai 105 that I absolutley love, but sorry can't give you any feedback on the swooping characteristics. I totally recommend getting a demo from Big Air, I don't know if you remember Andy from Tecumseh or not, but he jumps either a 95 or a 105 and is now down at Skydive SoBe. Also, Sporto may be able to give you some feedback, he jumped my Sam 105 for a couple of weeks and was getting killer swoops out of it. CYA Chrissy ~La La Gang Member #2~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TimDave 0 #15 January 29, 2004 I own a Crossfire2 109 and about 300 jumps on it. I have also about 30 jumps on a Sam 105. I am so wanting a Sam 105 now. The openings on the Xfire are without comparison the best I have jumped. The swoops on the Sam for me were much more consistently long and easy. So any body that wants a great Xfire 109 let me know. I want a Sam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites monkeyKam 0 #16 February 1, 2004 Hey all, Andy here... I load my Sam 105 at 2.0 and some change, depending on whether or not I'm wearing my camera gear. I jumped Michelle's 95 Sam quite a lot and I find that the 105 is the best choice for me overall. At the end of the swoop on a no-wind day or a downwind landing, the 105 has enough low-end lift to carry my fat ass to a walking pace. In my personal experience, the 95 was just one step too small for me. Fun, but I like to tip-toe or walk out of the end of my swoop. (Getting into shape might be a smart move, at this point, too. ) I do smooth carving 270's, let the canopy bring itself through the arc and then apply very slight outward pressure to the rear risers for landing and brakes at the end to finish. The Samurai rides a long, long way on rears before the toggles are needed. That's one of the things I love about Brian's design. Aside from that, the canopy is boatloads of fun up top. The ride can be a riot, as the lines are short and make for wicked snappy rear riser turns. I've also finally mastered barrel rolls up high. Way, way cool and much, much easier to do with the smaller Sam and my wingloading. Anywho... there's my 2 cents. Hey CHRISSAAYY!!! See ya down here in March!!! Blue skies and safe swoops! Andy "I drank what?" --Sophocles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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ChasingBlueSky 0 #12 January 27, 2004 The Ven also has a much steeper glide than the Sam at full flight, and the Ven has heavier toggle pressure. I've also found that the Sam wants to stay in the dive longer than the Ven. Sorry, only jumped the XF (wasn't impressed), not the XF2._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #13 January 27, 2004 Can you go up to a 2.0 load with these canopies (XF2, Samurai and Vengeance) and get good swoops/landings, yeah and here is my reasoning: Different factors come into play when you flare a canopy with lots of speed. The best part we realize is the translating of the speed you generated during either full flight or a HP landing approach into lift. You also see an increase in drag while creating the lift. While you slow, from the drag being generated, the canopy starts to lose its "Potential Lift" (speed) and more riser or toggle input is needed to keep the lift higher then the suspended weight. The amount of lift being is affected by airflow over the distorted portion of the canopy, just like a wing (speaking in general terms and theories). Smooth airflow over your wing creates lift and a canopy will only generate “x” amount of lift at any given speed based on wing shape and distortion. We all shoot to smoothly translate the speed we have into just the right amount of lift to hold the suspended weight in horizontal flight while keeping the canopy distortion to a minimum. “Non-braced” High Performance canopies (stiletto class) tend to start showing some drop when over 1.7 to 1.8 (rule of thumb). Sure you can land and swoop a non-braced canopy at higher loads but the best performance envelope may just be a little lighter. Basically there is only so much lift a canopy can generate at slower speeds. Sure you will be flying fast but since the canopy is becoming more distorted as it slows it starts to stop generating the lift needed for the heavier load sooner. The canopy stops flying at a faster speed and find yourself having to run or slide. A “braced” canopy tends to keep the distortion down and increases the amount of smooth airflow over the wing through a broader speed range. There are a different levels of Bracing, X-braced and Leading Edge braced. Airlocks on a canopy can be looked at like a leading edge X-brace. The XF2 does not have the airlock but instead has a "partially formed" leading edge. Both of the designs generate a similar effect. They each help too keep up the pressure inside a parachute, which creates both a stable leading edge and a smoother top surface during slow flight. I think most people agree that these two designs step up the performance to levels higher then seen with a non-braced canopy but not all the way to the X-braced designed canopies. Based on those thoughts, yes, you should be able to load either of these designs at loads of 1.95 to 2.0. Icarus recommends the upper end is at about 2.1 and I would guess that the Samurai and Vengeance are about the same. This is a step up in loading performance from the traditional non-braced HP canopies but still below the loads commonly seen with X-braced canopies Both designs are doing a similar job but with different engeinering paths to get there. Performance differences now can start to be seen and described in terms of wing design differences. What I mean may be able to be seen when looking at only the different “airlocked” canopies. There is a huge performance difference based not on the “bracing” of the canopy but on the design of the wing. End result, as I see it, is going to be pilot preference. The canopies will all go to the load range you want and should be fine flying at that weight. Mind you they will all fly differently since they are different designs. I found the Veng wanted to fly more steeply then my Sam. I found the Veng to be more twitchy then the XF2 but the XF2 may turn slightly faster. The Sam seems to give better low end lift. The only true way for you to decide on “which canopy” performs the way you like, is for you to jump them. What I like and feel may be different then what you like and want. There are many generalizations that can be agreed to and some are noted above from me and others. The only way to find the canopy that best fits you needs and wants is to Demo, not a bad deal though to have to go and demo canopies…. I liked the Sam better then the others, some other people may like the XF2. You have a XF2, get a demo of the Veng or the Sam and compare at similar loadings. Have fun!! Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AntiPinkChrissy 0 #14 January 27, 2004 Hey Rob, I have a Samurai 105 that I absolutley love, but sorry can't give you any feedback on the swooping characteristics. I totally recommend getting a demo from Big Air, I don't know if you remember Andy from Tecumseh or not, but he jumps either a 95 or a 105 and is now down at Skydive SoBe. Also, Sporto may be able to give you some feedback, he jumped my Sam 105 for a couple of weeks and was getting killer swoops out of it. CYA Chrissy ~La La Gang Member #2~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #15 January 29, 2004 I own a Crossfire2 109 and about 300 jumps on it. I have also about 30 jumps on a Sam 105. I am so wanting a Sam 105 now. The openings on the Xfire are without comparison the best I have jumped. The swoops on the Sam for me were much more consistently long and easy. So any body that wants a great Xfire 109 let me know. I want a Sam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkeyKam 0 #16 February 1, 2004 Hey all, Andy here... I load my Sam 105 at 2.0 and some change, depending on whether or not I'm wearing my camera gear. I jumped Michelle's 95 Sam quite a lot and I find that the 105 is the best choice for me overall. At the end of the swoop on a no-wind day or a downwind landing, the 105 has enough low-end lift to carry my fat ass to a walking pace. In my personal experience, the 95 was just one step too small for me. Fun, but I like to tip-toe or walk out of the end of my swoop. (Getting into shape might be a smart move, at this point, too. ) I do smooth carving 270's, let the canopy bring itself through the arc and then apply very slight outward pressure to the rear risers for landing and brakes at the end to finish. The Samurai rides a long, long way on rears before the toggles are needed. That's one of the things I love about Brian's design. Aside from that, the canopy is boatloads of fun up top. The ride can be a riot, as the lines are short and make for wicked snappy rear riser turns. I've also finally mastered barrel rolls up high. Way, way cool and much, much easier to do with the smaller Sam and my wingloading. Anywho... there's my 2 cents. Hey CHRISSAAYY!!! See ya down here in March!!! Blue skies and safe swoops! Andy "I drank what?" --Sophocles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
