learning curve and canopy size

[aneblett 0]

What is your exit weight?
What is your current canopy or are you just flying whatever people will lend you?

You have flown a good number of different Canopies! I think that is important, however I ask have you put enough jumps on each type to be see if you are consistent and or develop some kind of consistency?Only you can answer this, or a coach at your DZ that has been monitoring your flight.

Stand up landings do not necessarily mean they were good landings and though I am not saying that yours were or weren't I find that this is a common misconception and this is something to keep in mind. Again only you can answer this.

I don't know if you have been around here enough to see Billvon's list. It is a list of things that should be done proficiently under canopy before downsizing and though I myself didn't do all of them before moving to my current cannopy mainly because Manitoba is flat I did attempt and learn how to do them under my 170 before downsizing. I am sure that someone will post the list for you now that it has been mentioned. I will wait to see what you answer for the questions above but you'll want to learn to do the things on Bills list under a larger more forgiving main and if you haven't tried some of them then my vote will be for a 1:1 kind of loading.

It may not seem necessary being that you have flown all of these canopies but trust me tasting dirt cause you tried a crosswind landing and misread a windsock will and ended up more downwind feels a lot better with a larger canopy over your head that a napkin..

Now once again keep in mind that these comments aren't those of an expert but just an opinion and a coach that has seen you fly will be able to more accurately assess your skills..

AGE

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[aneblett 0]

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I'm 160, so 180-185 out the door, wingloading the 135 at 1.33-1.37

Just read your exit weight here. And based on that I have a few more comments. If you are bent on a stiletto... and yes they are really cool canopies go with the 150 (yes 150 not 135) and fly conservatively as hell. And though I am saying that it still may not save you from injury or disaster. You will have loads of fun on it and learn lots and it would be way way way way (have I said it enough) way safer for you at that loading.

What I would do in your case is buy a semi-eliptical 170 and learn to fly the snot out of it. And I think that the learning curve will be a lot less if you go this route because you won't have to be as careful with the canopy as it is more forgiving. Once you have put some jumps on it then move to the more unstable stiletto 150 and be conservative.

just my 2 cents feel free to ask any questions..

age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[aneblett 0]

Here is Bills list copied from one of the many similar discussions about this.

Thanks Bill

-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet?
-flare turn at least 45 degrees?
-land crosswind and in no wind?
-land reliably within a 10 meter circle?
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing?
-land on slight uphills and downhills?
-land with rear risers?


Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[SkySlut 0]

another quick question...rephrased:Ever see someone die under a perfectly good canopy?

I saw someone under a Spectre 170 WL @ about 1 to 1 with 200 jumps...done. Just a thought.

My theory is that a person with 160 jumps may not really have the experience to make the decision to get under a high performance canopy at that wing loading. I am saying this from a non-canopy nazi point of view...I have seen or known 8 people go in on fully functioning canopies (not to mention how many femurs and crushed internal organs) in the 2 1/2 years of jumping. I believe that everyone is responsible for their own decisions, but when you dont have a real sense of the consequences...This really isnt a joke.

[Michele 1]

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here is what i've flown:
skymaster 290
230
PD 210
Pro 190
Triathlon 190
175
160
sabre2 150
Stiletto 150
Stiletto 135
spectre 120

Hrmmmmm.....right about where did you leave student status?

Here's a thought. Let's pretend your canopy is your lover. Do you know everything to touch, in the right order, for the right amount of time, for the response *you* want from her, every time? Do you know each and every part of her that is sensitive, where to NOT touch, how hard to touch, when to touch that spot hard and then soft? Do you know when to touch, and when not to touch? Do you know the exact moment to "swoop" in on her? 'Cause you know she'll take care of you if you take care of her...

Same deal with a canopy. If you don't know exactly how it will respond, each and every time you touch it, you are running a risk. And while a lover may be able to tell you "no, not there...here", the canopy will not...it will just do what you tell it, regardless of your feelings and concerns.

How are your deployments? On heading every time? Have you ever screwed up and deployed really fast 'cause the planet was getting really big? How'd that go?

How about realizing you're downwind, it's about 10 mph wind, and you have 100 feet to figure out what to do. What are you going to do?

Or how about you and another jumper are heading towards each other - and you only have 150 feet of alti. 50 feet between you. What are you gonna do? How fast can you - not the canopy, but YOU - respond?

How're your flat turns? How little altitude do you lose consistently on them?

What do you do when there's someone who doesn't see you, it's 75 feet, and their projected path is across you - right in front, maybe 20 feet - what do you do? Yelling won't work - no time....so what do you do? (Yes, this happened to me last weekend. I chose wrong...and walked away because I was in a slow moving 210. Thank God.)

And lastly, have you taken a canopy class?

Stu, I want you around for a long time. The sky isn't going anywhere. They are not going to stop making canopies in the 135 - 120 range anytime soon.

What's the rush? Honestly. I don't understand it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[aneblett 0]

She makes excellent points....

Great analogy Michele. I need to think about that and remember it as well.

thanks for adding your voice to this discussion.

Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[SkySlut 0]

Michele...you definately make me hot...for canopy control, that is...

Good point.

[Genn 0]

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here is what i've flown:
skymaster 290
230
PD 210
Pro 190
Triathlon 190
175
160
sabre2 150
Stiletto 150
Stiletto 135
spectre 120

With 160 jumps and 11 different canopies.....That's an average of what?? 14 jumps per canopy...How could you possibly have been consistent and learned what each canopy has to offer?

[R00tj00se 0]

Michelle

I really like reading your posts - it's more like reading a short story than an internet chat room (ass kissing over with).

There's been an awful lot talked about canopies on this forum over the past couple of weeks but there are a couple of things I'd like to pick up on here.

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The sky isn't going anywhere.

This is similair to the philosophy I've applied to myself recently. It doesn't just apply to canopies - it can apply to any part of skydiving. I don't need to rush to get somewhere - what's the saying about it's not the destination, it's the journey...

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What's the rush? Honestly. I don't understand it.

Well, why skydive? I just don't understand it. Many people would say that to us.
You see, everyones different and will get there at their own pace. Some people like to push their limits. I don't know this superstu guy but the fact he has applied himself to jumping so many canopies in so short a time tells me that he is serious about finding out about canopy flight. He is a prime candidate for education and tuition rather than regulation - and if he is doing it a little faster than might be comfortable for us, well that's his decision as long as he has looked at the risks.
There are a number of people who have done the same thing who post here - why shouldn't he be allowed to do it.
You know, reading back through this, our views probably aren't far off each other, Michelle. It's just so much has been posted here about canopy regulation recently I don't whether I'm coming or going.
Superstu - consider the costs and the benefits of a smaller canopy. If you want to go small and fast get the best coaching you can and take out insurance - even the best screw up...

[Michele 1]

Morning, ROO

Thanks for the asskissing...ROFL...made my morning. (And good to see you around...)

You don't see me disagreeing with you, even with regulation. I don't really know where I stand on that...and so don't advocate it nor discourage it.

But I do know where I stand on education.

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I don't know this superstu guy but the fact he has applied himself to jumping so many canopies in so short a time tells me that he is serious about finding out about canopy flight

You and I see this differently, I suppose. I jumped the Spectre 230 for about 30 jumps before I got my own Spectre 210 (that I've put about 30 additional jumps on). Does this mean I am NOT serious about learning canopy flight?

12 or so of those jumps were hopnpops learning about my canopy and me in flight. And I don't really know anything, yet. I can't land exactly where I want to every time, and I still make errors in landing. And yet, this is a canopy I've spent some time on, and have taken instruction under.

I got to spend some time both on the ground and while landing with John LeBlanc in the early part of this month. And listening to him, and sitting in on 4 different seminars really showed me I have about a billion more things to learn about canopy flight in general before I add the factor of a smaller canopy. To really be a master of my canopy, I need to spend oodles more time under it.

I can only speak my mind. And what others do with my stories and experience is their own decision. What someone chooses to save their own life with, over and over, is their choice. Their responsibility. But I also think there's nothing wrong in slowing down the progression, taking the time to learn something, really getting that instruction and experience, and then making the call. And I can't see (but maybe I'm blind...that's been said before) what the rush is.

It's his bottom, and ultimately his life, that he is betting each time he (and all of us) jump. How he chooses to lay that bet is up to him.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[R00tj00se 0]

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tells me that he is serious about finding out about canopy flight

Ok, I can see your point. Maybe I should have said 'he is extremely keen to experience different canopies while learning what he can along the road to high performance landings. However, the way he is approaching this is such that he desires to travel the road a lot faster than most people would consider and therefore training and constant mentoring would be highly beneficial, otherwise he may veer off the road and over the edge of a cliff.'

The main points are:

(i) People are different. I'm with you, there's no rush but I accept that for some people it has to be now.
(ii) Education/coaching/mentoring is the way - especially for people who want high performance landings yesterday.

Safe swoops/staright in approaches/PLF's...

[Watcher 0]

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You and I see this differently, I suppose. I jumped the Spectre 230 for about 30 jumps before I got my own Spectre 210 (that I've put about 30 additional jumps on). Does this mean I am NOT serious about learning canopy flight?

But did you really see that much difference in the 210 than the 230? We train our students on 230 ZP canopies, some larger if the exit weight is larger. But just under 1:1 for students. I personally moved from a 288 to 189 in 4 jumps (while still on AFF), My body weight at the time was 170 so you can figure out the loading.

I do not see a really big difference moving down one size on the exact same canopy. So I have 250 jumps on my Velocity 103, And am looking to put another 300 jumps on it before looking at anything else, but if I stick with a Velocity and I propably will it will not take me 100 jumps to be at the same point on the smaller velocity, it'll take 10-15 to take in the changes, different descent rate, dive rate etx. On less radical canopies its even easier. Example:

I put 3 jumps on a Nitron 150, then did a Nitron 135 (did not notice much of a difference) then did 15 on the 135 then moved to and bought the 120. Nothing really changed from canopy to canopy except a couple jumps to dial in the responsiveness in the flare, and the added sensitivity to harness input.

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And I can't see (but maybe I'm blind...that's been said before) what the rush is.

I don't really think its a rush, for some people I am sure it is, but in general I would say its not. Some people are willing to ride that edge to push themselves to become better faster. Yeah I am 20 and have many many years to go in the sport, but why not push myself while I am young, agile, more resilient to injury, more energy? I have been in 2 Oh shit situations, One was a front riser turn too low, and another from also a front riser turn not necessarily too low just did not bump myself out of the dive in time. But I got up on the one that I impacted on and shook it off, packed it up and went up on the next load learning my lesson, and on the second one, ran out my landing.

Also please take into the account that some people start pushing themselves at an earlier point, I and others I know, Started Agressive front riser manuevers at jump 30. All but 45 of my landings have been front riser approaches.

Now the Big one thats the most important (other than education) is currency. If you are making 10 jumps a month then its going to be hard to progress in any aspect of this sport. Canopy is just the same.
40 jumps a month is going to keep you current, and be able to take those larger leaps because the muscles know exactly what to do, the mental awareness is greater, you are pushing the skills more often and more quickly. And that is ultimately the most important aspect of this sport is currency.

Sorry that got a little long.

--

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[quade 3]

Jonathan --

Something I've seen from a few people in your unique and fairly advanced position is that they have a tendancy to lose a bit of perspective.

Yeah, you are young and yeah you did advance pretty damn fast and you're quite talented -- obviously you're an exception and well above the bell curve on a lot of this stuff.

However, I don't think people should base their choices on yours because, well, let's face it, most people just aren't going to be able to commit the time and jumps to learn like you did nor do they have the talent.

You've properly suggested that in order to stay current that a person may need to do as many as 40 jumps per month, but do you have any idea how high that is compared to what most jumpers actually do? I mean, come on, that's 480 jumps per year. Most non-professional jumpers consider themselves to be very lucky if they make 300 jumps per year.

So, again, your being on a successful team and making a lot of jumps, well, that just separates you from the average jumper. Not your fault -- just a fact.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Watcher 0]

OK Well i apolagize for that then, I did loose a bit of perspective and my face it a bit red. But I was basing it on what I saw also from other jumpers that frequent the dropzones near atlanta. Many are doing 10-15 jumps in a weekend and are none employed by the dz, nor are they sponsored. Just a bunch of fun jumpers. So it seemed to me that an average of 10 jumps a weekend was not that significant, but I do see your point. It probably is a lot more difficult in colder areas to make that many jumps. And I might have a blured perspective because of the area and peoples apparent disposable incomes.

--

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[PhreeZone 15]

Currency is the name of the game in canopy flight. I jump fairly hard all summer and in 8 months do an average of about 225-250 jumps a year. The only people that tend to jump more at my DZ are professional teams or teams that got a nice price break, staff jumpers or a few other jumpers that are really hardcore. In places that have actual seasons you need to take that into consideration on your canopy choice. I know that if I really wanted to I could be on a canopy thats around 100 sq feet, but after the 4-5 month winter break I would have so low of currency that I'm increasing my risk of injury more then I am willing to accept. My current canopy is pushing the limits of what I'm able to currently fly after the 6 month break I had to take last year.

I can and do see the difference between any canopy that I've got to jump. Weither its a Manta 288, Sharpchuter 242 or my Jedei 136. Jumping the Tandem canopies with different loadings shows me different things on the same canopy at different loadings is different too. Every canopy is different and even jumping two canopies of the same type but different trim wear I was able to tell the slight differences. Its not a big deal, but it is a factor.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Cajun 0]

Consider this as well.
1. I have over 400 jumps and I'm loading at 1.5 : 1 I almost killed my self this spring because of a stupid stupid mistake. I made a 90 front riser dive to final while wearing gloves. When I let go of the riser I dropped the toggle as well.

2. When PD released the stiletto they would not sell it to anyone with less than 500 ram air jumps. The stiletto is not any tamer now.

3. You can always down size later if you don't kill your self now.

4. Think about next year when someone with 100 jumps says "well he could do it, so can I" then the next someone with 50 jumps, then someone just off student status. When you jump small parachutes the students are watching and want to be just like you.

5. Have a cut away yet? It makes a difference if you haven't.

6. do you really want to go faster, ALL the time. When you land off, when your landing area is crowded, when someone you jump with didn't track very far. ALL the time.

I'm not trying to insult you, just want you to know what you are getting in to. Good people die here.

[crewkeith 0]

print that on t shirts and hand them out to everyone

The skies are no longer safe


I'm back

			
		

[RozeAY 0]

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OK Well i apolagize for that then, I did loose a bit of perspective and my face it a bit red. But I was basing it on what I saw also from other jumpers that frequent the dropzones near atlanta. Many are doing 10-15 jumps in a weekend and are none employed by the dz, nor are they sponsored. Just a bunch of fun jumpers. So it seemed to me that an average of 10 jumps a weekend was not that significant, but I do see your point. It probably is a lot more difficult in colder areas to make that many jumps. And I might have a blured perspective because of the area and peoples apparent disposable incomes.

--

No fun jumpers in the Atlanta area who are not employed or sponsored make that many jumps in a weekend. I can only think of one that does and he has a great job. And he isn't out there every weekend. Like Quade said, most jumpers do not get nearly the number of jumps you do. Nor do they take the time to learn as much as they can from experienced pilots. Some do, some don't.

[Ron 7]

You are not the average jumper....

And you have made more than one mistake...reserve pull before cutaway...

I bet you never planned to smack the ground, or open your reserve before you cut away.
I bet you will NEVER do that again.

You have been very lucky...And yes you are young and don't get hurt as easy.

But not everyone does 40 jumps a mth...I think PD told me that the average # of jumps per person per year was like 100-150.

The fact is simple...Small canopy = smaller room for error.

Some can handle it...Others get carted away, some to a hospital..others a morgue.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bobsled92 0]

Skiing or swooping, bones still give in to impact.
I started skiing when I was 3.
Hit 68mph on 223cm's before teenhood. Did I mention spiral brake to my left leg at age 4? and that was one of my luckier ones.
J. Foxworthy once said: The last words in a Redknecks life is "Hey y'all, watch this!"
I think that my brothers' motto I was exposed to.
I wish I had heard "Experience is what you get 1 second after you really needed it".
I suffer from Catholic guilt so, I fear giving advice to *anyone* that might act on my opinion.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[freakydiver 0]

Its actually harder to ride a snowboard on flatter terrain. When we train for gates, we do a great deal of flatter ground carving excersises. I don't think canopy flying in any way mimics learning snowboarding in that aspect. One can learn a ton on lightly loaded canopy and NOT bang themselves into the ground when they make a mistake. One can also learn a ton on a higher loaded canopy but WILL bang themselves into the ground hard when making a mistake.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --