dsbbreck 0 #1 January 23, 2003 My home DZ recently set up an area for High Performance landings away from the general landing area. This area is an east/west landing area only and is suppose to be for those who intend on doing hook turns and who want to practice swooping. Our DZO has basically put it in a few of the regulars hands to self police this area. Those of us who use it regularly are going to set up a practice airblade swoop course. Our DZ is going to grow rapidly with the addition of an Otter this coming season and I sure there will be a lot of newbies wanting to use the High Performance area. SO ANYWAY......I'm opening my self up here for all you Swoopers opinions. I'm looking for any helpful advice you might have to minimize any problems we might encounter. Please relay stories and solutions to known problems. If you feel your advice is prudent, please email directly as well as posting here for all to see. [email protected] Thanks in advance, Happy Swooping, DavidDavid "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 23, 2003 You have an invaluable resource available to you with Derek being in the area. Talk to him and have him help you out.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headdown10 0 #3 January 23, 2003 Great idea but policing may prove to create some bad blood for jumpers who think they are ready to be there. I thought i was when we first built ours, i helped build it. I flew the course for about a week or two and got cocky, the knee surgery only took 3 hours and 2 days later i was jumping again.I got lucky and I haven't flew the course since. Make smart rules and no exceptions, not jump #'s but ratings that prove a level of competence.SHUT UP & JUMP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbbreck 0 #4 January 23, 2003 I would agree with you, but Derek doesn't come to Mile Hi anymore, he doesn't like our DZO. David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbbreck 0 #5 January 23, 2003 That's kind of what I'm looking for.....What are the SMART rules you have seen at dropzones that have similar High Performance landing areas?David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 January 23, 2003 I don't go out there because they don't call me to work out there anymore. I have got one call from them in the past 3 months, on a Friday, and I had already commited to working at another DZ. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #7 January 23, 2003 QuoteThat's kind of what I'm looking for.....What are the SMART rules you have seen at dropzones that have similar High Performance landing areas? well, we tried this at our dz, our problem wasn't really the people going in the area with out enough experience, it was more that the big, slow canopies were still in the way. they would fly right over were we were supposed to be hooking. the best idea i would say would to predeclare who can land there, like each person. and if somone else also wants to be able to land there, have them go do a hop n pop, and have them try the course, and if they can run it safely, then they can land there. but if someone that wasn't determined aloud to land there, and does. they get grounded for the day or maybe the weekend. just an idea later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diveout 0 #8 January 23, 2003 At skydive Oregon the runway separates the high-performance area (we call it pondside) from the main landing area. The S&TA has to approve you by watching one of your landings in the main landing area before you can even try to land pondside. People are banned if they're out of control or frap in a bit or whatever going for the pond. The canopy traffic patterns are totally separate areas which is also nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyguy 0 #9 January 23, 2003 Sounds cool. But here is a thought Summer before last, we were all learning, and going to the pond. Some crashes and screwups of course. So Water was a good thing. But You can't always have that. Anyway, my thought. You mentioned airblades. After we stopped crashing, and got better, they put up airblades. Then everbody started biffing again. It is just that if you aren't really carefull, they add an element that can be very dangerous. I suppose it is that a swooper swooping blades for the first time tends to look at them, a distraction, that caused a number of wet rigs. So be careful with them, I don't think I would leave them up all the time either. Aside from what I mentioned, they will get trashed. Make sure anybody that goes there gets some real coaching from a heads up flyer too. ---------------------------- bzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPY 0 #10 January 29, 2003 About building a swoop pond, at our DZ we have a natural ditch that we could enlarge to make a swoop pond, but it is north-south and the winds are usually west. What dou people here think about it? Good idea? Any advices? S-P =========================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 January 29, 2003 First off... how many people would use it and how many of those are able to land crosswind every jump while swooping? If its either a large number of jumpers or a large number could'nt swoop... don't build it under that layout. BTW, I think all ponds should have a backboard and first aid kit by them when ever people are jumping and might swoop.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mariann 0 #12 January 29, 2003 It has been my experience that the truly big canopies and new pilots don't want to get anywhere near high performance pilots - it simply scares the shit out of them! I think if you explain to the general DZ public that if you choose to land in the high performance area, you will be in a very fast, confusing, potentially dangerous landing pattern, you won't have any problems clearing the area of the low-timers and conservative pilots. Your problem is going to be the guy who is about 1 foot away from a double femur every time he lands - and he thinks he's doing great! If the area is merely "handed over" to the "swoopers" to self-police, I do not think it will work. Many swoopers think they are doing well simply because they haven't hurt themselves (yet!), so I can see a lot of arguing and safety issues. Too bad Derek isn't there - I know him, and he knows what's going on (Hi Derek!). An S&TA is NOT necessarily the answer. Many S& TAs know absolutely NOTHING about high performance flight, and what you need is a swooper, not a wanna be who happens to have a rating. Just because someone has 10 years in the sport and 5000 jumps doesn't mean they know a thing about swooping. It is dangerous to look at swooping as just another aspect of our sport. Swooping is its OWN sport! My reccommendation would be to maybe invite one of the Icarus/PD/Xaos factory pilots out there for a weekend of coaching and planning for a safe way to run your high performance area. They would be able to assess your area, decide what might be some danger areas, decide which way the course should generally run, and have a chance to coach all the swoopers who want to use the area. This would give everyone a chance to really learn a lot, plus you'd have a real swooper "in charge" of that area. That person doesn't have to be present to be in charge - after you work with one of those guys, your respect for them will keep everyone honest and following the rules. Hope you have fun swooping!!! Mariann Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 January 29, 2003 Hey Mariann, how's TX? You could come up to CO and set it up. I would like to do it, but I haven't been out there for several months. They don't have enough work to keep me busy, I guess. I have delt with these issues before and put a lot of thought into them. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #14 January 29, 2003 I haven't been to a lot of DZ's with ponds. However, one of the ones that I saw that had their act together in relation to pond swooping. I went there with intentions of getting on the pond. I asked around and found out quickly that they are very serious about the pond. They wanted me to swoop over the ground first for evaluation purposes. The pond swoops had to be declared before each jump to manifest as well as to the whole load before take off. I didn't ask what would happen if someone swooped it without pre-declaring before hand, but I can guess that grounding would be in order. It is a really good idea to have pre-declaration of a pond swoop for numerous reasons. 1st, you would have everyone know that someone is going for it so people would have previous knowledge to stay out of the way if they aren't going for it. 2nd, you would know who is going to try for it and if they aren't qualified, then the situation could be addressed. This way it is fair to everyone in the air, not to mention if you have some jackleg fly over the pond when people are trying hook it in, they can be addressed for the unsafe flight pattern they took. The main thing about this approach to swoop ponds it that it sets a basic set of rules for everyone to adhere to. You will also know who is going to be going for the pond and you can weed out the people that shouldn't be trying it and give them the proper knowledge and advice for doing such things without getting the random unexpected TRUCK making the low toggle approaches and not seeing the qualified swoopers above and behind them, which leads to radical accidents...... I have seen this at a few other DZ's, but I have never seen it enforced quite as strongly as I did at this DZ. I really think this is the way to go. Talk to your DZO about this and see what you can come up with. After all, nobody wants to piss off the DZO, so if he/she sets the rules, then everyone has to adhere to them. ............right!? Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mariann 0 #15 January 29, 2003 hey Derek! Tx is great, stuff in general is great! Travelling a lot - which is cool. What's up with you this year? Are you going to any swoop meets at all? I'm leaving tomorrow for Eloy for a training camp w/ Rave - me, Rick, Lou, and Courtney, who's from Denver. Do ya know her? We've got a great team this year! I think the factory pilots would have a lot more to offer new swoopers than I would - although I really appreciate your vote - that means a lot to me!!! Maybe in a year or so - I'm still working my own stuff out (can you say "rear risers?"), and just starting to get comfortable running the water courses. Anyway, good to hear from you & maybe we'll run into eachother sometime this year!!! peace - Mariann Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbbreck 0 #16 January 29, 2003 Just wanted to make it clear that this is not a pond course. No pond, just windblades over ground.David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #17 January 29, 2003 Actually, I would say that the same rules should apply to any swoop course, whether over ground or water. It just makes sense to me........ Derek, what do you think brother? Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 January 29, 2003 QuoteActually, I would say that the same rules should apply to any swoop course, whether over ground or water. It just makes sense to me........ Derek, what do you think brother? Right, except for water, you have to take into account a policy for not making it out of the water and having someone coming in behind you. Coming in to a ditch and having some that didn't make it out of the water pop up in front of you sucks. Run out of steam on the ground and you can get out of the course easily. Pre-determined order, conlfict policies, spacing, etc are the same. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
