NicoNYC 0 #1 October 7, 2002 Well, I finally did it. I did my recertification dive this past saturday and landed on my feet like a bird on a perch would at 14mph winds. However, the surface winds were very shifty that day it was either blowing south or south west. Anyway, upon opening, although I didn't know it at first, I was downwind. After my routing canopy check, I was about 3500ft. I was trying to read the windsock for verification of the wind direction. I had trouble reading the windsock from that altitude because I couldn't distinguish the windsock from a canopy that just landed. My mistake was that I failed to take note exactly which position one of the windsocks were from the target and the hanger area. I think that would have helped me big time. Anyway, I was going to do a drift check but a freakin' haze came out of no where so that didn't help me at all. So all I kept thinking about was just stay within the perimeter of the landing area and keep away from the runway. At about 2500ft I proceeded with my planned downwind leg. At 1500ft I was finally able to see the windsock now but I was now 45degrees of both my final and base leg. I just kept thinking "eat the carrot! eat the carrot!" which is what my Skydive U instructors taught me, This refers to approaching the final leg from the tail end of the windsock for your landing. At about 600 feet I was a bit off the perimeter so I just turned into the wind for my long final. It was a good landing. At 15feet I just kept saying "eyes on horizon! don't look at the ground! I have to say this because I have a bad habit of staring at the ground sometimes. I flared 1/2 brakes at 15 feet. The canopy sank and I held the 1/2 brakes flare and proceeded to flare when I felt my leg straps tighten and then I touched down so very softly. Anyway, I could have approached a good square pattern but being that I couldn't read the windsock properly and my drift check went out the window I ended up doing a check mark instead of a square or rectangle. Any tips for me that I can use when i can read the windsock? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #2 October 7, 2002 Actually, it sounds like you did perfectly. You changed your pattern to suit the situation. What some call Flying the parachute...not letting it fly you. In absence of a windsock you can get general directions from many other clues. The penetration check that you mentioned. Also, smoke, ponds...smooth side is up wind...rippled side downwind. You might also be able to tell from trees or some other flags in the area. Just be careful.....if you are using things that are 1/4 mile from where you are going to land the wind can be very differen't at your landing site. I watched an Army helicopter pilot land downwind not long ago because he was looking at the big wind sock. It's on top of a large bank on the OTHER SIDE of the runway. He never bothered to pay attention to the sock in the landing area. Anyway...don't rush...you aren't in a hurry. From 2000 or even 1000 you have lots of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlie 0 #3 October 7, 2002 Try spittin'! I learned this from a hot air balloon pilot.My other ride is the relative wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #4 October 7, 2002 Quote Try spittin'! I learned this from a hot air balloon pilot. That should work really well on a canopy going 20MPH forward.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #5 October 7, 2002 Well, one of the easiest ways is to watch the general traffic pattern. If everyone is landing in a certain direction, chances are pretty good it will be into the wind. Another way is to see what kind of ground you cover when facing each direction. On a really windy day it should be pretty easy to figure out because you'll haul ass in one direction & not make any progress in the other. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 October 7, 2002 Quote everyone is landing in a certain direction, chances are pretty good it will be into the wind. I've seen some pretty spectacular biffs from when someone set the patern wrong and everyone followed, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #7 October 7, 2002 See what the others do. It's allways nice when everybody lands in the same direction. At my home dz it's customary that the first person down sets the landing direction. Hang in half brakes and let other land before you. If everybody land in different directions, there's probably not much wind. Land safe, left turn on final.Sounds like you did just fine There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #8 October 7, 2002 QuoteIn absence of a windsock you can get general directions from many other clues. The penetration check that you mentioned. Also, smoke, ponds...smooth side is up wind...rippled side downwind. You might also be able to tell from trees or some other flags in the area. Since they just added a swoop pond, I'll use that as a reference now. QuoteAnyway...don't rush...you aren't in a hurry. From 2000 or even 1000 you have lots of time. You're exactly right. Thanks! I shouldn't rush. The haze and not being able to see the windsock just kinda freaked me out. I should do what they always preach to you as a student, relax and breathe. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #9 October 7, 2002 QuoteTry spittin'! I learned this from a hot air balloon pilot. hahahahahaha I'll use this concept in conjunction with: If I feel the wind blowing in my face while I'm canopy flying that must mean I'm facing into the wind. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #10 October 7, 2002 QuoteWell, one of the easiest ways is to watch the general traffic pattern. If everyone is landing in a certain direction, chances are pretty good it will be into the wind. I wanted to use that method. However, Since I was the last solo jumper out aside from the cameraman and instructor and the fact that I pulled above 5000 everyone was already grounded after I did my canopy control check. QuoteAnother way is to see what kind of ground you cover when facing each direction. On a really windy day it should be pretty easy to figure out because you'll haul ass in one direction & not make any progress in the other. I tried this too. Just as I was about to do a drift check a haze covered my ground view for a few seconds and cleared just in time to proceed downwind. And all I kept thinking was too steer away from the runway and stay within the perimeter of the landing area. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #11 October 7, 2002 QuoteQuote everyone is landing in a certain direction, chances are pretty good it will be into the wind. QuoteI've seen some pretty spectacular biffs from when someone set the patern wrong and everyone followed, though. I was just wondering if this had ever happened before. Now I know. Did everyone not watch the windsock? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #12 October 7, 2002 Quote See what the others do. It's allways nice when everybody lands in the same direction. At my home dz it's customary that the first person down sets the landing direction. Hang in half brakes and let other land before you. If everybody land in different directions, there's probably not much wind. It just so happened that during this incident I was the last solo diver out of the plane. By the time the haze cleared everyone landed already. That's what I get for pulling at above 5000ft. Well, now I know to check for all the flag and windsock positions against certain landmarks so I feel confident enought that this won't repeat. Quote Sounds like you did just fine Thanks. I'd like to think so too but I'd like to be normal and do a square or rectangular pattern instead of improvising my own patterns. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #13 October 7, 2002 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen some pretty spectacular biffs from when someone set the patern wrong and everyone followed, though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was just wondering if this had ever happened before. Now I know. Did everyone not watch the windsock? If the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Imagine the first half of the load chooses to follow the leader downwind and the second half chooses to land upwind. Think of the possibility for collision. You need to evaluate your landing pattern _every_ time, it's confusing at times and maybe even unfortunate, but it's not going to be the same every time. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookit 0 #14 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Or you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. Blues, Trey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #15 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Imagine the first half of the load chooses to follow the leader downwind and the second half chooses to land upwind. Think of the possibility for collision. You need to evaluate your landing pattern _every_ time, it's confusing at times and maybe even unfortunate, but it's not going to be the same every time. Does this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #16 October 8, 2002 QuoteOr you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. I don't disagree with that, but there are a few things to consider: * not all DZs have alternate landing areas * it is conceivable that you might not realize the downwind (or otherwise fucked up) pattern until it's too late to make it safely to an alternate landing area. All that said, it's not a bad idea to learn how to do a downwind landing. Depending on the winds it may be uneventful, or it may require a PLF or even a good tuck and roll, no matter what it's a good skill to learn and even a bit of a confidence builder. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #17 October 8, 2002 Quote Does this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? Yeah. Even though everyone else may be down, when they're walking back they'll be looking in the predominant landing direction. I'm actually kind of a bad offendor in this area 'cuz I like to crosswind 'em whenever I can. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #18 October 8, 2002 QuoteOr you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. I gotcha. I guess that is a rule thumb that must be adhered to. Kinda sucks if you have to go downwind but gotta follow the rules, right. Although I don't totally agree but like you said, if I don't like it then I shouldn't land in the main area. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #19 October 8, 2002 QuoteDoes this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? This is a decision that you will have to make at the time based on traffic (are there canopies 2100ft above you?), your position in the pattern (altitude), etc... Here's what I think you don't want to do: * You don't want to land 'against the grain' for fear of a collision. * You don't want to have to turn low to avoid another jumper on a collision course with you. * You don't want to turn low to get back into the wind. If I were the last one down, meaning that there were not canopies below me and there were not canopies above me, and I had the altitude to do it, I would probably land into the wind. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #20 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf I were the last one down, meaning that there were not canopies below me and there were not canopies above me, and I had the altitude to do it, I would probably land into the wind. Glad you feel the same way I do. Of course, I would carefully check below and above so as to not collide with other canopies. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GroundZero 0 #21 October 8, 2002 racing thru... didn't read the text, but..... when I can't read the windsock.... I usually biff-in Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsoutar 0 #22 October 8, 2002 I jumped at a very busy drop zone in Spain where you get the wind direction from the "T". When it gets busy they sometimes fix it in place and take down the windsocks to get everyone landing in the same direction. Watched 3 loads all crashing in doing downwind landings during a Xmas boogie because the wind had shifted 180 degrees (ouch - get me a lawyer!). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #23 October 8, 2002 QuoteSince they just added a swoop pond, I'll use that as a reference now. I wouldn't rely on the ripples in the pond at Xkeys. It has trees and trailers on one side which effect the wind in that immediate area. The winds have a good chance of being different in the middle of the field. You should almost always be able to see the socks at 1000'. At that point, decide on your pattern. You don't always have to do a downwind, base, final pattern. If you're at 1000' and see that you are already downwind, then hang out in that area (slightly off the wind line for others coming in) doing some S turns until you can do your base and/or final. Just watch out for traffic that is coming in to land. There's many times I've been on a long downwind spot and my entire pattern is one big final. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #24 October 8, 2002 Quotewhen I can't read the windsock.... I usually biff-in Newbie here....what is biff-in??? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #25 October 8, 2002 QuoteI jumped at a very busy drop zone in Spain where you get the wind direction from the "T". When it gets busy they sometimes fix it in place and take down the windsocks to get everyone landing in the same direction. Watched 3 loads all crashing in doing downwind landings during a Xmas boogie because the wind had shifted 180 degrees (ouch - get me a lawyer!). Can this be morally correct to do such a thing? Any massive injuries? That sucks dude. I know this is a sport where you're supposed to look out for others safety as well as your own but come on now....there has to be a fine line where you can adjust the pattern provided there is no traffic above or below you. I mean, if you're at least 1000 ft apart (below or above another skydiver in canopy flight) that you can turn back into the wind. Or am I just talking out of my newbie @$$? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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NicoNYC 0 #12 October 7, 2002 Quote See what the others do. It's allways nice when everybody lands in the same direction. At my home dz it's customary that the first person down sets the landing direction. Hang in half brakes and let other land before you. If everybody land in different directions, there's probably not much wind. It just so happened that during this incident I was the last solo diver out of the plane. By the time the haze cleared everyone landed already. That's what I get for pulling at above 5000ft. Well, now I know to check for all the flag and windsock positions against certain landmarks so I feel confident enought that this won't repeat. Quote Sounds like you did just fine Thanks. I'd like to think so too but I'd like to be normal and do a square or rectangular pattern instead of improvising my own patterns. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #13 October 7, 2002 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen some pretty spectacular biffs from when someone set the patern wrong and everyone followed, though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was just wondering if this had ever happened before. Now I know. Did everyone not watch the windsock? If the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Imagine the first half of the load chooses to follow the leader downwind and the second half chooses to land upwind. Think of the possibility for collision. You need to evaluate your landing pattern _every_ time, it's confusing at times and maybe even unfortunate, but it's not going to be the same every time. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookit 0 #14 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Or you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. Blues, Trey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #15 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf the pattern is for a downwind landing then it might be better, even though it's downwind, to follow the pattern. Imagine the first half of the load chooses to follow the leader downwind and the second half chooses to land upwind. Think of the possibility for collision. You need to evaluate your landing pattern _every_ time, it's confusing at times and maybe even unfortunate, but it's not going to be the same every time. Does this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #16 October 8, 2002 QuoteOr you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. I don't disagree with that, but there are a few things to consider: * not all DZs have alternate landing areas * it is conceivable that you might not realize the downwind (or otherwise fucked up) pattern until it's too late to make it safely to an alternate landing area. All that said, it's not a bad idea to learn how to do a downwind landing. Depending on the winds it may be uneventful, or it may require a PLF or even a good tuck and roll, no matter what it's a good skill to learn and even a bit of a confidence builder. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #17 October 8, 2002 Quote Does this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? Yeah. Even though everyone else may be down, when they're walking back they'll be looking in the predominant landing direction. I'm actually kind of a bad offendor in this area 'cuz I like to crosswind 'em whenever I can. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #18 October 8, 2002 QuoteOr you could choose not to land in the main landing area. If you don't like the pattern that everyone's flying then don't land where they're landing. Most dz's have either an alternate landing area or a landing area that's large enough that you can land way out from the crowd if you don't mind the walk back. I gotcha. I guess that is a rule thumb that must be adhered to. Kinda sucks if you have to go downwind but gotta follow the rules, right. Although I don't totally agree but like you said, if I don't like it then I shouldn't land in the main area. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #19 October 8, 2002 QuoteDoes this apply even if you are the last person off on the load. Meaning, you are the last one off the aircraft and the only one in the air within 2000 feet? This is a decision that you will have to make at the time based on traffic (are there canopies 2100ft above you?), your position in the pattern (altitude), etc... Here's what I think you don't want to do: * You don't want to land 'against the grain' for fear of a collision. * You don't want to have to turn low to avoid another jumper on a collision course with you. * You don't want to turn low to get back into the wind. If I were the last one down, meaning that there were not canopies below me and there were not canopies above me, and I had the altitude to do it, I would probably land into the wind. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #20 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf I were the last one down, meaning that there were not canopies below me and there were not canopies above me, and I had the altitude to do it, I would probably land into the wind. Glad you feel the same way I do. Of course, I would carefully check below and above so as to not collide with other canopies. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #21 October 8, 2002 racing thru... didn't read the text, but..... when I can't read the windsock.... I usually biff-in Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsoutar 0 #22 October 8, 2002 I jumped at a very busy drop zone in Spain where you get the wind direction from the "T". When it gets busy they sometimes fix it in place and take down the windsocks to get everyone landing in the same direction. Watched 3 loads all crashing in doing downwind landings during a Xmas boogie because the wind had shifted 180 degrees (ouch - get me a lawyer!). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #23 October 8, 2002 QuoteSince they just added a swoop pond, I'll use that as a reference now. I wouldn't rely on the ripples in the pond at Xkeys. It has trees and trailers on one side which effect the wind in that immediate area. The winds have a good chance of being different in the middle of the field. You should almost always be able to see the socks at 1000'. At that point, decide on your pattern. You don't always have to do a downwind, base, final pattern. If you're at 1000' and see that you are already downwind, then hang out in that area (slightly off the wind line for others coming in) doing some S turns until you can do your base and/or final. Just watch out for traffic that is coming in to land. There's many times I've been on a long downwind spot and my entire pattern is one big final. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #24 October 8, 2002 Quotewhen I can't read the windsock.... I usually biff-in Newbie here....what is biff-in??? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #25 October 8, 2002 QuoteI jumped at a very busy drop zone in Spain where you get the wind direction from the "T". When it gets busy they sometimes fix it in place and take down the windsocks to get everyone landing in the same direction. Watched 3 loads all crashing in doing downwind landings during a Xmas boogie because the wind had shifted 180 degrees (ouch - get me a lawyer!). Can this be morally correct to do such a thing? Any massive injuries? That sucks dude. I know this is a sport where you're supposed to look out for others safety as well as your own but come on now....there has to be a fine line where you can adjust the pattern provided there is no traffic above or below you. I mean, if you're at least 1000 ft apart (below or above another skydiver in canopy flight) that you can turn back into the wind. Or am I just talking out of my newbie @$$? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
